Violin collecting...when do you have enough?

[Rue]

30 minutes ago, Three13 said:

A collector has different goals than a player, and winds up with more of whatever it is that they collect than anyone could possibly justify. I topped out at 120 guitars, and given my collecting rationale could add more, but after putting 2/3rds into storage, had to ask myself what the point was.

Yes.  But what's a "collection"?

Collection has two different meanings.  Collection can refer to a group of anything (so I would have a random collection of instruments) or it can refer to a deliberate group of anything. 

My 6 guitars aren't a big C "Collection" because 1) I am not interested in collecting guitars and 2) each is different.

If I had 6 guitars of the same type, that would seem more like a Collection. So Three13 may have a Collection of vintage Telecasters.

 

 

[Three13]

4 minutes ago, Rue said:

Yes.  But what's a "collection"?

Collection has two different meanings.  Collection can refer to a group of anything (so I would have a random collection of instruments) or it can refer to a deliberate group of anything. 

My 6 guitars aren't a big C "Collection" because 1) I am not interested in collecting guitars and 2) each is different.

If I had 6 guitars of the same type, that would seem more like a Collection. So Three13 may have a Collection of vintage Telecasters.

 

 

I'm a fan of the concept of "collecting rationale" - the idea that in order for something to be a collection (as opposed to an accumulation) there must be some kind of defined logic to the set of items that is being put together. A deliberate group, so to speak.

That's not to say that everything should be of one narrow type (as much as I love vintage Telecasters).

[Garth E.]

Lot's of collectors here. I think the big question is when to sell off all the stuff. The older you get, the heavier it all becomes. However, selling it off is like admitting your time here is basically over. The other fear is you probably bought high, now you'll sell ridiculously low. Or someone will trash it all, I've heard of that too. Now that's why violins are the perfect collectible. Ultra lightweight, smallish, family understands a violins value a bit...they don't understand 100 watt Marshalls at all, or your guitars, even the Teles.

[FoxMitchell]

I think it's important to establish the distinction between a 'collector' and a 'gambler'.

If you're buying every violin you come across because you love surrounding yourself with violins, you're a collector.

If you're buying every violin you come across because you're hoping to find 'The One', then you're a gambler!

[deans]

25 minutes ago, Garth E. said:

I think the big question is when to sell off all the stuff.

When you are not enjoying them anymore.

But on the practical side of things, if your collection has significant monetary value, and your heirs would rather have the money than the fiddles, or you need it for your own retirement, you need to fix this before you lose the ability to do so (like being dead). It all depends on your financial needs, space, heirs, etc.

 

[Garth E.]

5 minutes ago, deans said:

When you are not enjoying them anymore.

But on the practical side of things, if your collection has significant monetary value, and your heirs would rather have the money than the fiddles, or you need it for your own retirement, you need to fix this before you lose the ability to do so (like being dead). It all depends on your financial needs, space, heirs, etc.

 

Exactly, when you are not enjoying them anymore. Really no point in waiting around for life to stop. Being practical can be annoying a times.

[Rue]

Yes.  Never collect something hoping the heirs will value it (because most will not).  However, at least let them know if anything is of value if they have to liquidate your estate - after you failed to liquidate it yourself. 

But - sometimes what the heirs 'value' changes with age too.

While no heirs may want a warehouse full of random guitars, one heir may really really want one special (to them) guitar - maybe the one you played Twinkle on, for them, when they were five.  Or, they may have interest in something when they are five,  lose interest when they are a teen...and have that interest resurface when they are 42...

You can only predict the future so much, and you can't bank on it.

I'd rather liquidate while I'm alive, and sell stuff (maybe even have fun doing it)...knowing that at least the buyer wants it.

[Three13]

1 hour ago, Garth E. said:

Lot's of collectors here. I think the big question is when to sell off all the stuff. The older you get, the heavier it all becomes. However, selling it off is like admitting your time here is basically over. The other fear is you probably bought high, now you'll sell ridiculously low. Or someone will trash it all, I've heard of that too. Now that's why violins are the perfect collectible. Ultra lightweight, smallish, family understands a violins value a bit...they don't understand 100 watt Marshalls at all, or your guitars, even the Teles.

Fortunately, I'm in my 40s, so I have some time to work on disposing of my pile. My practice has always been to move material when I have an offer that I can't refuse, as opposed to dumping - I've generally been very happy with the results.

I'm not sure I agree that violins are a perfect collectible, in that unlike factory-made things like Teles, many aren't quite so easy to definitively identify. There are numerous stories of dealers and collectors not agreeing on the identity of a particular fiddle, which has never been an issue when I've sold guitars (I could list many specific examples from my own experience here). That being said, I have more fun in the violin space for this very reason - you can probably learn everything you'd need to know about 20th century US guitars in a couple of years of close study, but would have to devote a lifetime to violins, and you'd never be able to learn enough.

[Shelbow]

I've collected lots of things over the years, at one stage I had a collection of guitar valve amplifiers, but I sold most of them as they were just taking up space. Same with guitars, got bored and sold a lot although I still have a few. I used to buy knives for a bit but I lost interest in that, I have loads in a lock box, I should probably sell them. I used to collect records, I had about 5000 but I've been selling them off for years, I did used to run a little record label for a bit so that was more justified ha ha. 

Currently I just collect books on musical instruments, violins and bottles of whisky. That is enough for me at the moment . 

I really love musical instruments and antiques so violins work for me interest and space wise. I like guitars and mandolins, but good antique guitars are too expensive and they take up too much room. 

 

[scribe]

4 hours ago, Argon55 said:

I thought everybody knew that you need n+1 violins provided that (n+1) ≤ (d-1), where 

n = number of current violins

d = number of violins which cause a divorce

Which reminds me of my recurring nightmare....in which I've passed on and my wife is trying to sell them for the price I told her I'd paid for them  

Anyway, I've finally,  just this week, emptied all my cases and filled a display cabinet. 

On the one hand this is good - I can see them all hanging there and appreciate them, but on the other hand, so can she ... and she can count!  ( ...let's not mention the two in my "playing" case..)

I've collected in a focussed way though so there is a theme to my small display.

[scribe]

sorry double post

[bungling_amateur]

There's another idea in collecting, which I came to through book-collecting (building a working research library) - the idea that your collection can become better if you "weed" it, that way you can continue to acquire new items to add to the collection, while simultaneously selling off the least good / least fitting ones, to give you space and cash for the new acquisitions.

I started just buying books and adding them to the shelves, but my enjoyment of my library increased a lot once I started ruthlessly de-accessioning things!

And because I'm not doing it as an "investment" I have no problem selling way below what I paid, or even giving things away.

[bungling_amateur]

There's another idea in collecting, which I came to through book-collecting (building a working research library) - the idea that your collection can become better if you "weed" it, that way you can continue to acquire new items to add to the collection, while simultaneously selling off the least good / least fitting ones, to give you space and cash for the new acquisitions.

I started just buying books and adding them to the shelves, but my enjoyment of my library increased a lot once I started ruthlessly de-accessioning things!

And because I'm not doing it as an "investment" I have no problem selling way below what I paid, or even giving things away.

[jacobsaunders]

Reading through this thread, I cannot avoid sensing an abdication from reality, particularly re. informing future heirs of the riches awaiting them.

Since the mid-90’s, I have been Gerichtliche Sachverständiger (court expert), a post that I resigned from a couple of weeks ago for health reasons. One of the jobs this post involved was valuing “heritages” for probate.

As an example I remember being sent to the flat of a deceased Senior ministerial civil servant. He had lived just around the corner from the Viennese “Naschmarkt” which has a colossal “Flea market” every Saturday morning (Ebay equivalent), and he had evidently got up at the crack of dawn every Saturday morning for decades, to see what violins the gypsies had for sale. When I arrived, all four of the children (heirs) were there, two pretty docile, the other two decidedly not and who had both come with their lawyers to make sure that the other one didn’t trick them out of their inherited riches.

The whole room full of violins etc. was dismaying, mostly pimped up “Dutzendarbeit” with wildly apocryphal labels in disgusting condition. The only thing any good was a rather nice Pfretschner bow. I had to say my opinion on each one (about 3 dozen times), and the faces of the four heirs and two lawyers gradually froze over more and more. Towards the end, one of the belligerent heirs told me I should not forget to include a valuation of the cases in my valuations. By this time I was gradually losing my temper too, and told him he could shove the shit in the skip himself, which really started him off.

The Viennese have a saying “dein letztes Hemd hat keine Taschen” (your last shirt doesn’t have pockets) which one should bear in mind when collecting violins, or any antiques.

[Just Sayin’]

Jacob, your posts are always so wildly entertaining, I really enjoy them! Thanks for sharing your experiences.

[Dave Slight]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

Reading through this thread, I cannot avoid sensing an abdication from reality, particularly re. informing future heirs of the riches awaiting them.

 

 This is a common issue when dealing with probate situations, and can quickly become a difficult situation to manage. On one hand, there is the family, who have for years, been given the impression by the collector that all the instruments and bows are rare, high quality & valuable.
On the other hand there is reality, where what you are looking at is case after case of things in a shabby state, with home done repair attempts, which have basically ruined it, or it's all just standard German work, but the collector believed the spurious labels and bow brands.

The family have already been planning what to do with their riches, a new car, conservatory, holiday in Hawaii.
And then the valuation for everything comes to about 1/10th of what they had been expecting. Watch those smiles fade, and the arguing to start.

I think most people who collect really enjoy it, and get a great deal of pleasure from tinkering away, get some excitement from having new toy. I'd say 90% of them are deluded about the true value of what they have.

[GeorgeH]

2 hours ago, Dave Slight said:

I'd say 90% of them are deluded about the true value of what they have.

A collection that is worth anything as a capital investment should be formally appraised for replacement value, insured, and professionally maintained.

[Shelbow]

I think Whisky collection is the way forward 

[Dave Slight]

13 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

A collection that is worth anything as a capital investment should be formally appraised for replacement value, insured, and professionally maintained.

That is true, and the right way to do it.

I was talking about what Jacob had alluded to. A large collection, built up over the years, buying things here and there. Most of which should have been left there in the first place.

[GeorgeH]

19 minutes ago, Dave Slight said:

That is true, and the right way to do it.

I was talking about what Jacob had alluded to. A large collection, built up over the years, buying things here and there. Most of which should have been left there in the first place.

Well, better violins than cats, I suppose. 

But, in regards to "90% of them are deluded about the true value of what they have,"  most people would not buy their own violin for what they believe it is worth. It is a natural cognitive bias.

[Delabo]

31 minutes ago, Dave Slight said:

That is true, and the right way to do it.

I was talking about what Jacob had alluded to. A large collection, built up over the years, buying things here and there. Most of which should have been left there in the first place.

I absolutely agree with you.

You professionals should stay in your workshops repairing stuff and never bother checking any of the local auctions (one less to bid against).

And keep away from car boot sales and Gumtree - (Craiglist) , because I can absolutely without question assure you that its all just junk and not worth having.

Personally, as an amateur I have never found anything of any value going this route and it was all a terrible waste of time financially.

[Garth E.]

Funny, I've made money when I didn't really set out to make money, whether it was antiques, real estate, cars whatever. As soon as I tried to speculate on anything and tried to make money, I usually failed miserably. These days money has no real hold, you get to a certain age and you've had a lifetime to get your financial house in order. Keep it simple and you'll probably have enough. I value history over money value when it comes to violins. Far more interesting.

[Delabo]

22 minutes ago, Garth E. said:

Funny, I've made money when I didn't really set out to make money, whether it was antiques, real estate, cars whatever. As soon as I tried to speculate on anything and tried to make money, I usually failed miserably. These days money has no real hold, you get to a certain age and you've had a lifetime to get your financial house in order. Keep it simple and you'll probably have enough. I value history over money value when it comes to violins. Far more interesting.

Good answer.

I have had much the same experience as you.

 

[Argon55]

22 hours ago, scribe said:

Which reminds me of my recurring nightmare....in which I've passed on and my wife is trying to sell them for the price I told her I'd paid for them  

Hey.....snap! 

[MANFIO]

It is better having a good one than potboilers.