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Ron Teplitz

Ban on denatured alcohol in California

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5 minutes ago, not telling said:

 

 

Very strongly agree. If you want to be baffled and angry then head over to the EWG project Skin Deep. Enter your favorite product and see it rated for the danger it poses. Endocrone disruptors, cancer-causing ingredients, reproductive harm, and on and on. Look it up. I guesd it's mostly men here, so tell your wives about that website. It's a huge undertaking that, obviously, industry is less than thrilled about. Denatured alcohol is the tip of the iceberg.

There's plenty of evidence-based science going on in this area, and it's all accessible easily on Skin Deep, don't take my word for it.  

We're assuming the alcohol for fragrances is denatured with methyl alcohol; it could well be a host of other less poisonous additives. The additives for the fragrance is probably more than sufficient to render it denatured.

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28 minutes ago, not telling said:

 

 

Very strongly agree. If you want to be baffled and angry then head over to the EWG project Skin Deep. Enter your favorite product and see it rated for the danger it poses. Endocrone disruptors, cancer-causing ingredients, reproductive harm, and on and on. Look it up. I guesd it's mostly men here, so tell your wives about that website. It's a huge undertaking that, obviously, industry is less than thrilled about. Denatured alcohol is the tip of the iceberg.

One wonders how many patent-holding professional chemists worked on these products.  :ph34r:

OTOH, the EWG has a very bad reputation scientifically.  I consider their message overly biased and poorly supported by data, while being heavily supported by the "organic" products industry.  :)

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19 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

One wonders how many patent-holding professional chemists worked on these products.  :ph34r:

OTOH, the EWG has a very bad reputation among scientists in general.  I consider their message overly biased and poorly supported.  :)

Really? I always liked it. I appreciate that I can enter any ingredient and get some information. Biased, sure. But I'm biased. I look around and see the rate of chronic disease and figure it's something being done to us, not something we are actively choosing. This website helps, maybe, for making choices about risk. Spending any time on Skin Deep easily gives way to becoming a worldview for sure (everything is poison), which I don't expect agreement about. Maybe I feel that way because I lack a lot of chemistry education. 

Denatured alcohol isn't considered a huge problem there, btw, as most formulations are a 3 on their scale. But they also assume you're not splashing around in it, and denat alcohol for cosmetics use maybe isn't the same as used for solvent. I remember reading some concerning literature about denatured alcohol maybe 10 years ago. Concerning as in, the message is to never, ever touch it for any reason.

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38 minutes ago, not telling said:

If you want to be baffled and angry then head over to the EWG project Skin Deep. Enter your favorite product and see it rated for the danger it poses. Endocrone disruptors, cancer-causing ingredients, reproductive harm, and on and on. Look it up. I guesd it's mostly men here, so tell your wives about that website. It's a huge undertaking that, obviously, industry is less than thrilled about. Denatured alcohol is the tip of the iceberg.

There's plenty of evidence-based science going on in this area, and it's all accessible easily on Skin Deep, don't take my word for it.  

Yet, average life expectancy continues to improve.

Many disinfectants are potentially toxic or poisonous (and people can also get sick from vaccines), but it turns out that it's safer to use them than not. Doesn't one need to look at both sides of an issue?

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14 minutes ago, not telling said:

Really? I always liked it. I appreciate that I can enter any ingredient and get some information. Biased, sure. But I'm biased. I look around and see the rate of chronic disease and figure it's something being done to us, not something we are actively choosing. This website helps, maybe, for making choices about risk. Spending any time on Skin Deep easily gives way to becoming a worldview for sure (everything is poison), which I don't expect agreement about. Maybe I feel that way because I lack a lot of chemistry education. 

Denatured alcohol isn't considered a huge problem there, btw, as most formulations are a 3 on their scale. But they also assume you're not splashing around in it, and denat alcohol for cosmetics use maybe isn't the same as used for solvent. I remember reading some concerning literature about denatured alcohol maybe 10 years ago. Concerning as in, the message is to never, ever touch it for any reason.

Unfortunately, informational sites on the Internet don't come with hazard warnings (such as what you have to already know to safely use the information offered), or ingredients lists, so you know when you're getting fed 3% facts versus 97% fertilizer.  :lol:

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2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Yet, average life expectancy continues to improve.

Many disinfectants are potentially toxic or poisonous (and people can also get sick from vaccines), but it turns out that it's safer to use them than not. Doesn't one need to look at both sides of an issue?

That's not strictly true actually, since this is the first year that life expectancy has gone *up* in the United States in some years. And maybe we should consider the quality of those years as well.

I think maybe you're asking the wrong question and we might wonder instead why everything is allowed to be toxic in the first place. As Jezzupe and others have wondered, why is denatured alcohol allowed to be manufactured and in fact mandated to be poison?

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Plenty of toxic substances have been used in violins over the years, and who knows whats in the varnish of some of the Chinese instruments. That's why I stopped eating them long ago.

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1 minute ago, deans said:

Plenty of toxic substances have been used in violins over the years, and who knows whats in the varnish of some of the Chinese instruments. That's why I stopped eating them long ago.

Wise

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1 minute ago, not telling said:

That's not strictly true actually, since this is the first year that life expectancy has gone down in the United States in some years.

I believe this is correct, but a lot is due to things like opioids and obesity that plague certain  areas.

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33 minutes ago, not telling said:

That's not strictly true actually, since this is the first year that life expectancy has gone down in the United States in some years. And maybe we should consider the quality of those years as well.

Things like wars and pandemics can create blips. For that reason, I like to look more at longer trends than year-too-year.

I don't expect this to be a good year, anywhere, and it's not because of methanol or crop herbicides.

While our current crop herbicides and pesticides might not be totally without harm, it's not a great thing to have millions of people in other parts of the world starving either.

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37 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Things like wars and pandemics can create blips. For that reason, I like to look more at longer trends than year-too-year.

I don't expect this to be a good year, anywhere, and it's not because of methanol or crop herbicides.

Well, at the moment the United States is still the wealthiest country, and yet for life expectancy we are at 38, sandwiched uncomfortably between Lebanon and Cuba. It's a "long trend", since this metric has been stagnant or falling slightly for a decade. That has not been the case in countries with a different regulatory environment.

And there are lots of reasons for that. But maybe it's best not to be overly dismissive of poisons in our air, food, medicine, water and homes. Maybe?  Business friendly policy is bad for our health. Maybe this is not an opinion. The fallout will continue to be seen, since the EPA and FDA have been gutted totally.

I'm sorry to do this, but you started it.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, not telling said:

Well, at the moment the United States is still the wealthiest country, and yet for life expectancy we are at 38, sandwiched uncomfortably between Lebanon and Cuba. It's a "long trend", since this metric has been stagnant or falling slightly for a decade. That has not been the case in countries with a different regulatory environment.

And there are lots of reasons for that. But maybe it's best not to be overly dismissive of poisons in our air, food, medicine, water and homes. Maybe?  Business friendly policy is going to kill us. Maybe this is not an opinion. The fallout will continue to be seen, since the EPA and FDA have been gutted totally.

I'm sorry to do this, but you started it.

 

 

Oh, goody, now we're down to "nya-nya-nya-nya-nya".  :rolleyes:    Excuse me, but if I may remind you..................

  

On 7/7/2020 at 12:33 PM, Jeffrey Holmes said:

Information, good.  Politics, most of it's now deleted. This is NOT facebook. OK?

 


:)

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Oh, goody, now we're down to "nya-nya-nya-nya-nya".  :rolleyes:    Excuse me, but if I may remind you..................

  


:)

 

 

Ok. Point taken. He did though. :angry:

I am still somewhat on topic, when I express opinions that denatured alcohol (paint store variety) isn't a decent product for any use and should be banned, and the option to buy any proof ethanol should be preserved. Both statements are political. It's easy to veer off into the social ramifications of the kind of regulation seen in California (or France, Denmark, Malta, and etc.).   One of which, possibly, is increased lifespan. We don't know yet if Californians live longer and have less birth defects than the rest of the country, but someday "we" will, even if we won't.

I guess I should stop. I find the topic interesting. I will say, at Red Wing a lot of information against using denatured alcohol was presented. I expect all of the schools would be in agreement about it.

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41 minutes ago, not telling said:

Well, at the moment the United States is still the wealthiest country, and yet for life expectancy we are at 38, sandwiched uncomfortably between Lebanon and Cuba. It's a "long trend", since this metric has been stagnant or falling slightly for a decade. That has not been the case in countries with a different regulatory environment.

And there are lots of reasons for that. But maybe it's best not to be overly dismissive of poisons in our air, food, medicine, water and homes. Maybe?  Business friendly policy is bad for our health. Maybe this is not an opinion. The fallout will continue to be seen, since the EPA and FDA have been gutted totally.

As you say, there are a number of contributory factors, but peoples personal lifestyle choices and diet will have the biggest influence.

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1 hour ago, not telling said:

Well, at the moment the United States is still the wealthiest country, and yet for life expectancy we are at 38, sandwiched uncomfortably between Lebanon and Cuba. It's a "long trend", since this metric has been stagnant or falling slightly for a decade. That has not been the case in countries with a different regulatory environment.

And there are lots of reasons for that. But maybe it's best not to be overly dismissive of poisons in our air, food, medicine, water and homes. Maybe?  Business friendly policy is bad for our health. Maybe this is not an opinion. The fallout will continue to be seen, since the EPA and FDA have been gutted totally.

I'm sorry to do this, but you started it.

The US has 4.5 times more McDonalds than any other nation. ;)

Hey, know why men typically die before their wives? Because they want to. :lol:

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2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Yet, average life expectancy continues to improve.

That is largely due to decrease in infant mortality, which skews the average. Once a person makes it past childhood, the number of years of life he/she left hasn't really continued to increase by much.

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24 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

That is largely due to decrease in infant mortality, which skews the average. Once a person makes it past childhood, the number of years of life he/she left hasn't really continued to increase by much.

Maternal adverse outcomes and infant mortality are very, very high in the States. Decreased since 1970, maybe, but not continually, as far as the US is concerned. Where are you getting this stuff? If you're looking at the fact that the United States is equipped to take care of very premature babies, then maybe. And those of us concerned with the future should ask, why all these premature babies in this country anyway? I'm familiar with these statistics enough that I opted out of the US health system as much as I could.

There's other reasons other OECD countries have seen increases in life expectancy and everything else, far past what the US has been able to achieve. 

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I'm a long-time lurker and, but I wanted to weigh in that discussion of what is safe, or not, is a very dangerous game to play.

I do not usually mention my credentials, but I have a PhD in chemistry (in fact, I'm a Professor of Chemistry) and I also worked at NASA in the early 2000s.  My area of expertise is in human health and chemical measurement.  Methanol requires serious ventilation and PPE considerations, please read the MSDS before taking anyone's advice (even mine):

 

https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/14280.htm

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5 hours ago, avandesande said:

Methanol is used in windshield wiper fluid and is found in foods such as fruits as a methyl ester.

There is a popular adage that the dose makes the poison. Some denatured alcohol formulas contain large amounts of methanol, while others contain none. Meanwhile, the FDA is advising people to avoid certain brands of hand sanitizer because they contain methanol and could therefore be extremely hazardous to their health

You do what you want, but I will use and recommend the least toxic options available to me.

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26 minutes ago, Adrian Lopez said:

There is a popular adage that the dose makes the poison. ...

Is that an adage, truism, or both?^_^

Just in general, I like to mention that the LD50 of table salt is around 3250 mg/kg (rat, oral) which translates into about 50 teaspoons of salt for the average human...

Yet, we also need salt to live...

 Toxicity varies with uptake; oral, dermal, etc, and with the organism (sex and age) and how the organism tolerates the toxin.

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1 hour ago, Adrian Lopez said:

There is a popular adage that the dose makes the poison. Some denatured alcohol formulas contain large amounts of methanol, while others contain none. Meanwhile, the FDA is advising people to avoid certain brands of hand sanitizer because they contain methanol and could therefore be extremely hazardous to their health

You do what you want, but I will use and recommend the least toxic options available to me.

I just picked up a quart of hand sanitizer from the Ann Arbor Distilling Company. Hand sanitizer is a major business for them right now. It is 80% ethyl alcohol, with the rest being water, hydrogen peroxide and glycerin. Sounds pretty safe. I presume that the hydrogen peroxide is the denaturant, as well as having some disinfecting properties of it's own.

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I've used denatured alcohol the past 47 years in my varnish.  I also fly rc model airplanes with a fuel  that's about 80 percent pure methanol, the rest being castor oil and nitro methane.  After reading this thread, I think I'd better be putting my affairs in order.:(

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