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Ron Teplitz

Ban on denatured alcohol in California

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14 minutes ago, avandesande said:

Methanol isn't that toxic unless you drink a large amount of it. Your body has no trouble metabolizing it in small quantities.

Not true.  Unlike ethanol, it metabolizes to highly toxic formic acid by way of formaldehyde, and is easily absorbed through the skin.  Also, the LD50 (median lethal quantity=50% mortality) of 1 ml/kg of body weight quoted in most sources (and inaccurately given in Wikipedia as 100 ml consumption for the average human) isn't the issue.  Small amounts on the order of a few ml can cause permanent blindness by formic acid selectively damaging the optic nerve.

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Yup, that's why the first run "high shots" used to make the moonshiners go blind, wrong kind of alcohol chemically!

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5 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Not true.  Unlike ethanol, it metabolizes to highly toxic formic acid by way of formaldehyde, and is easily absorbed through the skin.  Also, the LD50 (median lethal quantity=50% mortality) of 1 ml/kg of body weight quoted in most sources (and inaccurately given in Wikipedia as 100 ml consumption for the average human) isn't the issue.  Small amounts on the order of a few ml can cause permanent blindness by formic acid selectively damaging the optic nerve.

Where do people get this stuff?  Its 140 mg kg.

http://midi-inc.com/pdf/MSDS_CH3OH_Wash.pdf

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13 minutes ago, avandesande said:

Where do people get this stuff?  Its 140 mg kg.

http://midi-inc.com/pdf/MSDS_CH3OH_Wash.pdf

That's LDLo. "Human LDLo Oral: 143 mg/kg"

From another source:"The minimal lethal dose following ingestion is considered to be in the range of 3001,000mg/kg."

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/456293/Methanol_TO_PHE_260815.pdf

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49 minutes ago, avandesande said:

Where do people get this stuff?  Its 140 mg kg.

http://midi-inc.com/pdf/MSDS_CH3OH_Wash.pdf

So why didn't you post the MSDS first, instead of making your original post, apparently encouraging people to go out and guzzle methanol?  :P

My point was that a mere sip of the stuff could make you go blind.  I see nothing in the weight- rather than volume-based data to make me modify that.

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1 hour ago, Bill Yacey said:

Why would anyone want to take the risk of confirming these numbers?

The numbers for methanol are notoriously iffy because of the difficulties involved in projecting human effects from results using the usual lab animals (because they don't metabolize it into formate), combined with the added expense and complications of obtaining figures for contact and inhalation toxicity, which are important with methanol.  I would expect that, in the case of methanol-tainted ethanol, due to pathway competition, the ethanol present might mask the effects until accumulated formate suddenly blinds the drinker unexpectedly, which is consonant with anecdotal data.  Somebody going to bed buzzed, then waking up blind the next day is common in the literature.  Given that in the case of skin contact (as when varnishing), the methanol will be preferentially absorbed, and probably dominates vapor inhalation as well, for heaven's sakes, just avoid the stuff, and use products with a lower toxicity in your shop.

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Here is the product I was able to buy at the hardware store.  "Denatured alcohol", 30-60% methanol.  And they don't list the ingredients on the container because they're not required to!

Klean Strip Denatured Alcohol

Denatured indeed.  I'd call it criminal.

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On 7/3/2020 at 12:26 PM, Adrian Lopez said:

I'm guessing the reason camping stove alcohol is still legal in CA is because the denaturant they use to render it undrinkable isn't toxic.

So it looks like the CA ban on denatured alcohol has nothing to do with the use of toxic denaturing agents like I thought, but rather with environmental concerns over the use of certain volatile organic compounds (VOCs). Camping stove fuel is legal not because of an absence of toxic substances, but rather because it's sold as a fuel and not as a solvent.

There's a website called shellac.net (based in California) that sells a shellac reducer manufactured by Mohawk that is mostly ethanol and contains no methanol. Not sure about the toxicity of it's other constituents, but here is the product page with links to the MSDS:

https://www.mohawk-finishing.com/products/wood-staining-finishing/reducers-additives/shellac-reducer/

So is Mohawk Shellac Reducer still legal in CA, or is shellac.net just selling its remaining inventory? I don't know, but it's an option to consider.

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I grabbed this off the net, and can't  be sure of its accuracy:

"It is legal to sell Everclear 190 in Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Georgia, Idaho,[8] Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania,[9] Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming, and in some military stores within the continental United States."

There are some liquor stores that sell it online, but they aren't open yet this morning, so I haven't checked yet if they can sell and ship to states where it is not sold.

It also may be legal to send it to any state as a gift, (if you have friends or family in one of the states which doesn't sell it) as long as there is no financial transaction involved.

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Isn't bioethanol commonly available in the US? Here in EU it is all the rage in fuel - just this january norms for gas changed to allow up to 10% (or15?) of bioethanol in gas.

You can buy bioehanol as fuel for stackless fireplaces in various clarity and the one I'm buying is anhydrous with few grams of MEK and bitrex adeed per 1000 liters of the anhydrous. I checked directly with the manufacturer and thay sent me all the MSDS papers and norm sheets concernind bioethanol they produce and the stuff is at least 99.9% ethanol. I've used pharmacy grade pure ethanol (96%) before and also denatured 95% stuff (containing gasoline (lame attempt at translation of our word) as denaturant, as used in hospitals for desinfication) but this bioethanol is the best for spirit varnishes and FP by a LONG shot. I posted more about that last year.

The best thing is 1 liter goes for under 2 Euro...

 

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I have been using Klean Strip Green Denatured Alcohol since Everclear 190 is not readily available for me.  Claims to be 95% Ethynol and I have had no issues french polishing  shellac.   

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1 hour ago, HoGo said:

Isn't bioethanol commonly available in the US?

 

Yes, but the motor fuel contains a minimum of 15% gasoline.

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1 hour ago, JPOWTC said:

I have been using Klean Strip Green Denatured Alcohol since Everclear 190 is not readily available for me.  Claims to be 95% Ethynol and I have had no issues french polishing  shellac.   

This still has 3-7% Methanol, if this is the real issue that we're addressing here.

CAS #Hazardous Components (Chemical Name)3. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTSConcentration

64-17-5Ethyl alcohol {Ethanol}80.0 -100.0 %

67-56-1Methanol {Methyl alcohol; Carbinol; Woodalcohol}3.0 -7.0 %

141-78-6Acetic acid, ethyl ester {Ethyl acetate}1.0 -5.0 %

108-10-1Methyl isobutyl ketone {Hexone;Isopropylacetone; MIBK; 4-Methyl-2-pentanone}0.1 -1.0 %

142-82-5Heptane0.1 -1.0 %

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6 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I grabbed this off the net, and can't  be sure of its accuracy:

"It is legal to sell Everclear 190 in Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Georgia, Idaho,[8] Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania,[9] Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming, and in some military stores within the continental United States."

There are some liquor stores that sell it online, but they aren't open yet this morning, so I haven't checked yet if they can sell and ship to states where it is not sold.

It also may be legal to send it to any state as a gift, (if you have friends or family in one of the states which sells it) as long as there is no financial transaction involved.

I checked with one outfit which sells and ships 190 Everclear via internet orders. The other two I have still been unable to contact by phone at their listed phone contact numbers, during their listed business hours.

The first told me they could ship 190 Everclear to any state, but later called me back to say that they couldn't ship it to some states, including Michigan.

Fortunately, I only need to drive about three hours each way to get it, and I don't use a lot (as long as I don't drink it) :lol:

Just kidding about drinking it. This stuff is strong and deceptive enough, with enough of a delayed reaction, that one could think they are having a good time, and wake up dead.

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A search for bio ethanol on Amazon reveals various products designed for use in alcohol-burning fireplaces. If I set my zip code to California I get no warning about shipping restrictions, though I find that's not always an indicator of whether or not they'll actually ship it. I've not had much luck finding an MSDS for most of the ones that come up, but one brand called Smart Fuel contains:

Ethyl Alcohol: > 90%
Proprietary Ingredients: < 10%
Denatonium Benzoate (BITR™): < 1%
Isopropyl Alcohol (IPA): 4.8% - 9.0%

So what are these "proprietary ingredients," and how likely are they to kill you? I don't know, but I expect if they were truly dangerous they wouldn't be allowed to hide them behind a "proprietary ingredients" designation. This is just an assumption on my part, so caveat emptor.

Another question luthiers in CA should be asking: it is legal to buy alcohol outside of California and bring it into the state for use as a solvent? For that matter, is the kind you can buy in California legal to use as a solvent in spite of the restrictions on being sold for such purposes?

Environmental restrictions in CA can be murder for some businesses, like these makers of surfboard cores. Can't be easy being a woodworker in California, either: MEK (Mineral Spirits) banned in So. California?, Danish oil: outlawed in So. California!, No More Tru-Oil in California.

I want to say that moving the hell out of California is always an option, but I don't want it to come across like a jerk so I won't even mention it :lol:

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I made pegs for a customer with a Guad, who also owned a distillery. As a thank you he sent me a case of eau-de-vis. When I met up with him many years later he wondered why I never thanked him. It never got to me. Either the Post or somebody working there confiscated it. You can send wine in Oregon if someone 21 years old recieves it but not hard alcohol. Unless that has changed recently.  

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38 minutes ago, Adrian Lopez said:

I want to say that moving the hell out of California is always an option, but I don't want it to come across like a jerk so I won't even mention it :lol:

Admirable restraint!  [Returns to researching applied plate tectonics with the benevolent intention of giving Arizona and Nevada Pacific coastlines.]  :ph34r:  ;)  :lol:

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22 minutes ago, catnip said:

What about 99% Isopropyl alcohol?  It seems a bit less toxic.

I've been using isopropyl in varnish for years and had no trouble with it.  :)

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Just stop it, @jezzupe There are plenty of sites that you can go to for posting this kind of nuttery.  Take it there, and stop hijacking threads to post your political views on Maestronet.

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Aw come on. I love it. I so rarely hear from an intelligent music and culture lover who is also a far right zealot. This is getting even more interesting. I tune out when people at work talk about how Jordan Peterson saved their minds from confusion. There's plenty of stupidity to go around, you have your DTP protesters disrupting everyone's lives who call the police when it gets real, and you have your incels who are desperate for any ideology at all. Well, you might not like it either...but culture is always political and there really are people who want to destroy any culture that they see as being of the past.  At the same time, some want to preserve what is not good. Who decides...the intellectual majority?...So...future is what, more gangsta rap? Woke. Jezzupe's talking about a real thing. That's something I worry about too.

We could actually in a really old-fashioned way go to our lawmakers , who are increasingly not career politicians , and let them know that Everclear is much more solvent than tasty beverage and that we would appreciate it being available and priced as such. There's some hope. And it's not coming from the right.

Anyway. I'm out. As fun as this is....I certainly want the information from earlier in this thread to stay available.

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1 hour ago, jezzupe said:

Really I had some leftist the other day tell me that "classical music" is racist , because  they were a bunch of white slave owners and that they look forward to smashing all violins and burning all the music when the time comes.
 

I do hope that didgeridoos, and Australians, will survive "the cleansing". ;)

 

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