Sign in to follow this  
PhilipKT

Are these French scrolls?

Recommended Posts

Long story short: student looking at some cellos via mail. These are the two he’s interested in, and considering having shipped. Each is French. I don’t feel comfortable sharing all the photos, but I can share a couple with an info request. These are claimed as French cellos, between the wars. Do the scrolls look French?

 

9EC2F096-98F8-4059-8743-4EF8FCF0F8D2.jpeg

BC824E2D-BAB3-492C-8B07-C3C1914E1701.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without knowing which makers they are claimed to be I don't think anyone would want to sway a purchase/sale one way or another ...

Alternatively, just make sure your student is buying from a reputable dealer, not grubbing around in some bargain basement Facebook thread or on Fleabay.

If I was required to choose between the two in order to avoid a heavy electric shock to the sensitive parts, I would say the first is French. But while the second is quirky and not in the French style, who's to say it isn't made by someone who happens to be French.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the first one was French so its nice to hear that Martin thinks it is.

What is the second one though ?

Jacobs remark seems to indicate its something else, and that usually means German, but this scroll has what appears to be hand applied oil varnish which is not something I would associate with German stuff. So what is it ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Jacobs remark seems to indicate its something else, and that usually means German, but this scroll has what appears to be hand applied oil varnish which is not something I would associate with German stuff. So what is it ?

Being far away to second guess about Jacob‘s intentions it’s the usual beginners mistake to isolate a particular feature as an indicator for the whole without seeing the rest.

The first looks of course similar to what happens to be associated with French style in the head of most people, and that is exactly what‘s used by uncountable numbers of copyists/fakers. Could be also anything from Markneukirchen/Bohemia/Hungary or elsewhere.

Who told you about the nonsense that „Germans didn’t use hand applied oil varnish“, and how can you judge that it‘s exactly this by a photo?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Blank face said:

Who told you about the nonsense that „Germans didn’t use hand applied oil varnish“, and how can you judge that it‘s exactly this by a photo?

I was cautious and said "appears to be" as I am not proficient enough to know if it is oil varnish or not.

And I do not usually associate late 19th century markies with hand applied oil varnish, but if you say I am wrong I hold my hands up.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Delabo said:

this scroll has what appears to be hand applied oil varnish which is not something I would associate with German stuff. So what is it ?

That is a rather bold statement.

I've been involved with instruments for a long time, there are very few instances when one could realistically identify the type of varnish used from a photo, let alone a low res photo like this.
Assuming somehow that oil varnishes are special and only used in certain places, certain makers, or indicates a quality of the instrument it is on, is surely a recipe for disaster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Blank face said:

 

The first looks of course similar to what happens to be associated with French style in the head of most people, and that is exactly what‘s used by uncountable numbers of copyists/fakers. Could be also anything from Markneukirchen/Bohemia/Hungary or elsewhere.

 

Personally I would be surprised if this scroll wasn't French. The flatness of the pegbox going into the volutes, the particular opacity and colour of the varnish, the shade of the ground and the fingerboard platform, the absolute roundness and symmetry of the volute, all these are good for me. 

Unless it's a Poggi of course :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

That is a rather bold statement.

Sheeeesh !

What is the matter with you guys ? :lol:

I see that I will have to be very careful how I word my posts from now on.  I was thinking out loud and was silly enough to put my thoughts to digital paper and I now see that was in error.

It looks like oil varnish to my untrained eyes.

Clearly I am mistaken. I was wrong. in error. I made a faux pas.:lol:

Maybe the English word "appears" has other connotations in different languages.

I thought that Jacob was saying its the "usual" and that means late 19th century chippy spirit varnish.

But now I  am thinking I have got that wrong as well and the "usual" has some other type of varnish ! :lol:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Delabo said:

 

I thought that Jacob was saying its the "usual" and that means late 19th century chippy spirit varnish.

But now I  am thinking I have got that wrong as well and the "usual" has some other type of varnish ! :lol:

 

 

I think it rash thatyou should take licence to second guess me so extensively. I was merely telling the OP off for asking a stupid question. He already did this recently, and I prescribed him 10 press ups , which he indignantly refused. I find it a shame that people try to answer his question, which will only encourage him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jacobsaunders said:

I think it rash thatyou should take licence to second guess me so extensively.

LOL !

I have a different idea for the term "the usual". When I see a post that asks for an ID and then I see the famous scarlet red of your icon of you posing in your castle  I immediately think - "oh oh" Jacobs here and that means "the usual".

The same goes when I see the Blank Face dog picture.

My deepest apologies for getting it wrong on this occasion. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Delabo said:

My deepest apologies for getting it wrong on this occasion. :lol:

No apology necessary, mistakes are always our best teachers.

We are all here to learn. Even the experts learn from each other here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I think it rash thatyou should take licence to second guess me so extensively. I was merely telling the OP off for asking a stupid question. He already did this recently, and I prescribed him 10 press ups , which he indignantly refused. I find it a shame that people try to answer his question, which will only encourage him.

Jacob I know of course that one doesn’t identify an instrument by one feature. We have been over this many times. Try to understand that if I post a feature Im only asking about that feature. I asked if the scrolls looked French. The top instrument is labeled Emile Laurent II, the bottom is labeled Georges Cone.

I don’t feel comfortable posting all the photos but I thought i might learn something if I just posted the scrolls and asked if they looked French.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Delabo said:

that means late 19th century chippy spirit varnish.

If you are describing commercial work, again I'd have to take issue here, for they certainly are not all finished with the same 'chippy' recipe.

The cheapest grades, naturally were not worth spending much money or time on. They often have a basic thin varnish, which may only contain one type of resin, laid over stained wood. This does scratch up badly, often turning whitish.

The grades above this, do not use this type of varnish, and on the higher grades the varnish is really quite good. Often better, and more reliable than some individual makers used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Jacob I know of course that one doesn’t identify an instrument by one feature. We have been over this many times. Try to understand that if I post a feature Im only asking about that feature. I asked if the scrolls looked French. The top instrument is labeled Emile Laurent II, the bottom is labeled Georges Cone.

I don’t feel comfortable posting all the photos but I thought i might learn something if I just posted the scrolls and asked if they looked French.

The trouble is Phillip, one single image is not enough to give an informed opinion. And as has been pointed out only using one feature, or one view may lead to some conclusions that are way off the path to reality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

The trouble is Phillip, one single image is not enough to give an informed opinion. And as has been pointed out only using one feature, or one view may lead to some conclusions that are way off the path to reality.

Ok, fair enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

The top instrument is labeled Emile Laurent II, the bottom is labeled Georges Cone.

 

Then I don't think either is right.

The first could be a good French cello scroll though the pegbox is surprisingly long and thin - the second has nothing to do with Coné and smells a bit off generally.

TBH the first looks more like Georges Coné.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

If you are describing commercial work, again I'd have to take issue here, for they certainly are not all finished with the same 'chippy' recipe.

The cheapest grades, naturally were not worth spending much money or time on. They often have a basic thin varnish, which may only contain one type of resin, laid over stained wood. This does scratch up badly, often turning whitish.

The grades above this, do not use this type of varnish, and on the higher grades the varnish is really quite good. Often better, and more reliable than some individual makers used.

So what is the varnish used on the second cello in your opinion ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Then I don't think either is right.

The first could be a good French cello scroll though the pegbox is surprisingly long and thin - the second has nothing to do with Coné and smells a bit off generally.

TBH the first looks more like Georges Coné.

Thank you very much. I don’t have any reason to suspect this dealer. I’m just a bit leery of having instruments shipped on approval.  It is awkward expensive and time-consuming. One would think that we could find a nice instrument in my students price range locally. It’s not like Dallas is a waste land.

The first scroll I shared look nice, the second one looked a little bit clunky, which is why I made the request.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Delabo said:

So what is the varnish used on the second cello in your opinion ?

I would not offer an opinion from just a poor picture, especially on a scroll which seems to be antiqued and dirtied up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Delabo said:

When I see a post that asks for an ID and then I see the famous scarlet red of your icon of you posing in your castle  I immediately think - "oh oh" Jacobs here and that means "the usual".

The same goes when I see the Blank Face dog picture.

My deepest apologies for getting it wrong on this occasion. :lol:

I don’t know what is giving you this odd idea but accept the apology.^_^

There are more than a few Saxony makers in the 19th century and earlier using oil varnish BTW.

31 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

I would not offer an opinion from just a poor picture, especially on a scroll which seems to be antiqued and dirtied up.

Exactly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I don’t know what is giving you this odd idea but accept the apology.

i am an eternal optimist and always hope when I click on one your posts that you have turned up a genuine Goffriller or Landolfi or even a beaten up old Tononi but its much more likely to be the "usual" with one of those labels stuck in. :lol:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify, I was really in truly only asking for information on those two scrolls. They are both allegedly French cellos, supposedly, Made in the same period, supposedly made by reputable makers. The two scrolls looked extremely different, so I asked if they looked French to your educated eyes. I wasn’t asking for anything else, and I certainly wasn’t asking for anything beyond a reaction to the two scrolls themselves, so no push-ups today, Jacob, because they are not warranted.

one of the other cellos has a wonderful label inside that says”Französische Cello Modell Stradivarius” and in one corner, “HD Shutz HD”

I’m sure it means nothing, but I think it’s funny to have a label in German identifying a French cello made to an Italian model.

Edited by PhilipKT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a stupid question showing a fraction of a cello and expecting to get a whole answer that isn't just as stupid as the question. If you skive your press ups again, you should at least have a guilty conscience

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.