Stradivarius violin talks to you

[Three13]

35 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Just because something's a challenge doesn't mean there's a virtue in meeting that challenge.

Or wisdom in getting an excellent bench copy made...

[A. Strelnikov-Resch]

16 hours ago, martin swan said:

PhilipKT it's kind of you to contribute, but really it's water off a duck's back.

It's a fatuous argument that regularly gets trotted out here on Maestronet. I don't suppose anyone takes it very seriously - if they do, they should really visit Christophe Landon's Facebook page and watch him playing the cello for his chickens. The inevitable conclusion would be that this guy has no hope of understanding the requirements of his clients, and couldn't possibly command respect as a dealer amongst the classical fraternity.

 

Mr Swan only one idiot can come up with such a conclusion. 

When you discuss how good ( Stradivari ! ) violins are from you playing them you are bound to get some reaction. You have maybe 8 or 10 east European players on Mn which included me and we talk. I wish to  assure you firmly that you have no =ZERO violin playing skill in the classic sense. And as such TO ME and TO OTHERS you can not know with direct experiences how a ( Stradivari ! ) violin plays for a soloist. That is because you can not play what a soloist plays. I will change my mind when I hear you play Tchaikovsky from begining to end .  One violin which is "Easy to play" for you  becomes hard to play for proper player who makes good, solid tone. You can not know because you can not play by our concept of what violin playing IS . This is FACT not a "fatuous argument". 

I then mean that you must expect SOME professionals with proper training to have doubts on your opinions or just ignore them. You express your opinions, we express our opinions. That is the forum for. I think it is better if you stop pushing people around if they do not agree with what you say.

 

[martin swan]

28 minutes ago, A. Strelnikov-Resch said:

Mr Swan only one idiot can come up with such a conclusion. 

 

 

Exactly - the fact that M. Landon is a comedy cellist does not disqualify him from advising the greatest soloists in the world.

I am working with great players all the time - many of them from the Russian school. I am hearing and playing fine instruments on a daily basis. My business partner was the concertmaster of a respected German orchestra and is a prodigious player. 

The differences between violins are enormous, and you simply don't need to be a great player to understand them. You just need to have good ears and a very broad experience of violins and of players. If you can play a few notes close to the bridge in high positions on the G with a heavy bow, a few accurate double stops and a couple of fast passages, then you can easily distinguish between the comparative merits of two violins.

If the premise that you are advancing is that only a classically trained player can know whether a violin will work for them or not in the context of their own technique, then I don't disagree with you. I would be a poor dealer if I tried to persuade someone to buy or use a violin that didn't work for them.

If your premise is that because I play traditional music I can't know what great classical players will like, then you are just wrong, and you reveal yourself to be small-minded.

I am not pushing anyone around. I questioned the wisdom of judging Stradivaris on the basis of one instrument played long ago - this seems to have hit a nerve, though it appears to me that Mr. Modri has withdrawn this information from his post.

For myself I would not dismiss anyone's opinion. I know much worse players than me who have an unerring ability to judge the quality of an instrument or a bow. 

 

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, A. Strelnikov-Resch said:

You have maybe 8 or 10 east European players on Mn which included me and we talk.

 

Uh oh, Martin, he's calling in silent reinforcements to gang up on you.

Streinikov-Resch, I know people who are horrible players who are very very good at assessing violin sound and playing properties.

[A. Strelnikov-Resch]

31 minutes ago, martin swan said:

For convenience to each number :

1. If the premise that you are advancing is that only a classically trained player can know whether a violin will work for them or not in the context of their own technique, then I don't disagree with you. I would be a poor dealer if I tried to persuade someone to buy or use a violin that didn't work for them.

2. If your premise is that because I play traditional music I can't know what great classical players will like, then you are just wrong, and you reveal yourself to be small-minded.

3. I am not pushing anyone around. I questioned the wisdom of judging Stradivaris on the basis of one instrument played long ago - this seems to have hit a nerve, though it appears to me that Mr. Modri has withdrawn this information from his post.

4. For myself I would not dismiss anyone's opinion. I know much worse players than me who have an unerring ability to judge the quality of an instrument or a bow. 

1. Yes, you understand.

2. I can be small minded but still I think playing traditional music has nothing with it. You can play it and still know what classical players will like.

3. It is your tone and the kind of argumets which gives this impression. My generation said of that tone to be "not in order". I also followd the thread since the past two days and I saw no such thing from Mr. Modri. Maybe you confused with another poster ?

4. I met some too and also people who did not play at all and still knew violins very well, much better than me.

I do not want to step between yourself and Mr. Modri only to say that you can not ecxpect everybody to place the same value on your opinion.

[jacobsaunders]

On the question of judging violin sound, and or fine adjustment:

I have always found players from either the jazz or folk music background the most helpful and useful for tonal adjustments and or judgement if a fiddle is any good or not. I think this might have to do with their giving importance to the harmonics, and the difference between playing near the bridge and near the finger board, rather than some mania about drowning out some imaginary orchestra. Martin plays a little like a bull at a gate, but I suppose that caters for people like that.

[martin swan]

48 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Martin plays a little like a bull at a gate

Jacob  that's the nicest thing you've ever said about me ....

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, A. Strelnikov-Resch said:

Mr Swan only one idiot can come up with such a conclusion. 

When you discuss how good ( Stradivari ! ) violins are from you playing them you are bound to get some reaction. You have maybe 8 or 10 east European players on Mn which included me and we talk. I wish to  assure you firmly that you have no =ZERO violin playing skill in the classic sense. And as such TO ME and TO OTHERS you can not know with direct experiences how a ( Stradivari ! ) violin plays for a soloist. That is because you can not play what a soloist plays. I will change my mind when I hear you play Tchaikovsky from begining to end .  One violin which is "Easy to play" for you  becomes hard to play for proper player who makes good, solid tone. You can not know because you can not play by our concept of what violin playing IS . This is FACT not a "fatuous argument". 

I then mean that you must expect SOME professionals with proper training to have doubts on your opinions or just ignore them. You express your opinions, we express our opinions. That is the forum for. I think it is better if you stop pushing people around if they do not agree with what you say.

 

This is one of the most astonishing posts I have ever read.

I am a teacher. I can teach my students how to play anything they care to learn, And I can evaluate them as they play. AND I can evaluate their instruments as well. It is not necessary for me to be able to play at their level in order to show them how to do so(although I can, of course.)Also, I can monitor them correctly even if I cannot play the passage. 

I do not need to be able to play Tchaikovsky concerto in order to know how to evaluate a performance. I don’t need to play Beethoven in order to judge how well the player is using his violin.

Two seasons ago, the man who owns the Del Jesu violin called “the canary” came to town to play the Korngold violin concerto with us. It was appallingly, embarrassingly bad, every rehearsal, and every performance. I do not need to be a soloist to be aware that the violin was being abused, and to explain in detail how it was being abused.

To claim otherwise, and in such language, is ridiculous, insulting, and it is completely and obviously wrong.

George Bernard Shaw was the greatest music critic of all time, yet he could not play anything. According to your logic the only person who can be a critic is somebody who can play at the highest level.

sheesh.

go away.

Edited June 30, 2020 by PhilipKT

[martin swan]

Maybe doctors should be restricted to diagnosing illnesses which they themselves suffer from ...

[Rue]

3 hours ago, A. Strelnikov-Resch said:

... You have maybe 8 or 10 east European players on Mn which included me and we talk...

My husband once tried to hug a bouncer outside a nightclub in Prague.   Thankfully hubby emerged with his face intact...

I was in Budapest several years ago.  People in Budapest don't smile. 

I have a Moldovan coworker - she had a rough time growing up in Moldova, it shows.

I have Russian and Polish sides to the family - there is a cultural/philosophical difference between the East and West.   More pronounced in the older generation, certainly.

I hope that this discussion is reflecting that difference - and that this isn't the start of an MN gang war! 

Virtual vodkas on the house!  Na zdorovya! (In memory of a Ukrainian neighbour, Uncle Mike!)!  

[David Burgess]

42 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

This is one of the most astonishing posts I have ever read.

 

During the little bits of time I have spent in former Soviet-block states, I did notice a tendency for the "old-school" communist-era people to attempt to signify their importance by making sweeping bombastic pronouncements.

It really doesn't work any more, and the younger folks just brushed it off when it was directed at them, and even apologized to me when it was directed at me. Old habits are not easy to change.

[La Folia]

I'm so glad that most people immediately reached the same conclusion as I did.  You guys are OK.    Maybe you would have had to be there, but on to my ears, on this recording, that sounds like a very ordinary violin.  I have heard some great Strads, but I'm not sure this is one of them.

Hmm, in a rational lending program, doesn't the soloist have some choice in instruments?

[David Burgess]

14 minutes ago, Rue said:

I was in Budapest several years ago.  People in Budapest don't smile. 

 

When I was in Moscow, the way it was explained to me was that there was a famous Russian philosopher and writer who claimed something like,

"If you smile or laugh in response to someone telling a joke, that's OK. Smiling at any other time just makes you look like a fool."

Interestingly, the guy who explained this to me seldom smiled.

I think we are all influenced by the cultures we grew up in.

[Violadamore]

19 minutes ago, Rue said:

I hope........that this isn't the start of an MN gang war!

[Looks up from dipping adjectives in sarcasm, and stacking them neatly next to the popcorn, ready for use.]

Why?  

[La Folia]

On 6/29/2020 at 10:04 AM, martin swan said:

I don't know how many Strads you have played, but I have never had this experience of finding one difficult to play.

You're an iconoclast, Martin, but so right.  Don't you know that an instrument can't be great if a mere mortal can play it?  Neither do I.    That seems like a peculiar notion to me.  I don't recall ever playing a good violin that was hard to play, except maybe for wolf notes that you have to tiptoe around.

The notion that a top soloist can't play a little more delicately or more ham-handedly to fit an instrument seems odd.  Sure, different instruments are suited to different people, and it might take time to discover all the potential of an instrument, but there's only a certain range of bow speed, pressure and contact point, and everyone learns to play with a variety of styles.

And by the way, your Transylvanian playing is excellent, and idiomatic.  I certainly wouldn't presume whatever other kinds of music you can or cannot play well.

[PhilipKT]

6 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

[Looks up from dipping adjectives in sarcasm, and stacking them neatly next to the popcorn, ready for use.]

Why?  

I spend too much time collecting metaphors, similes, adjectives, and analogies for use with my students.

My favorite simile is one that I thought of myself, I am way too proud of it, but I give it to you as a gift.

“That’s like going around the world to get across the street.”

now I want your tastiest adjective, and none of this “less fat and one-third the invective” stuff...I want full power!

[Eugen Modri]

3 hours ago, martin swan said:

I questioned the wisdom of judging Stradivaris on the basis of one instrument played long ago - this seems to have hit a nerve, though it appears to me that Mr. Modri has withdrawn this information from his post.

I did not change any of my posts. Which post are you talking about ?

[La Folia]

45 minutes ago, Rue said:

I was in Budapest several years ago.  People in Budapest don't smile. 

Huh?  I was in Budapest last year, and I didn't notice anything like that.  What I saw was a vibrant, beautiful city that has overcome its Soviet-dominated past to a remarkable extent.  They are doing a fantastic job of exciting young people about folk arts, and the way they rebuilt (and yet preserved) the city after the devastation of WW II and the Soviet occupation is incredible.  I'm told there is still some residual depression, but people are friendly and approachable, and it's a beautiful place.  I'm planning to go back as soon as possible.

[Eugen Modri]

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

This is one of the most astonishing posts I have ever read.

I am a teacher. I can teach my students how to play anything they care to learn, And I can evaluate them as they play. AND I can evaluate their instruments as well. It is not necessary for me to be able to play at their level in order to show them how to do so(although I can, of course.)Also, I can monitor them correctly even if I cannot play the passage. 

I do not need to be able to play Tchaikovsky concerto in order to know how to evaluate a performance. I don’t need to play Beethoven in order to judge how well the player is using his violin.

Two seasons ago, the man who owns the Del Jesu violin called “the canary” came to town to play the Korngold violin concerto with us. It was appallingly, embarrassingly bad, every rehearsal, and every performance. I do not need to be a soloist to be aware that the violin was being abused, and to explain in detail how it was being abused.

To claim otherwise, and in such language, is ridiculous, insulting, and it is completely and obviously wrong.

George Bernard Shaw was the greatest music critic of all time, yet he could not play anything. According to your logic the only person who can be a critic is somebody who can play at the highest level.

sheesh.

go away.

What is it you find so astonishing ? Mr Swan and Mr Strelnikov seem to agree on everything.... And it was not an exchange on generalities but on the specific question if a violin's suitability has to be established by the actual user and on actual repertoire... 

Are you often so distracted ?

By the way where did you learn GBS was "the greatest music critic of all time" ?

[Eugen Modri]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Maybe doctors should be restricted to diagnosing illnesses which they themselves suffer from ...

An EXCELLENT idea ! Count me in.

Now, which post I changed ?

[Rue]

5 minutes ago, La Folia said:

Huh?  I was in Budapest last year, and I didn't notice anything like that.  ...

Could be it's 'picked up' quickly in the last 5 years.  Everything seems to be moving very fast at the moment. When I was there, the younger people in the malls, etc., were like younger people everywhere...but the older folks?  No smiling.  Nope.

[David Burgess]

48 minutes ago, La Folia said:

Hmm, in a rational lending program, doesn't the soloist have some choice in instruments?

Sometimes, and sometimes not. Not all lending programs revolve around the personal selection of the player. If one is offered a Strad, and doesn't take it (notice that nearly all of Yang's CV's and reviews mention that he is playing a Stradivari), promotion might suffer. Playing on a Stradivari, in the eyes of the average person, will be considered a pretty powerful affirmation of the player, if they have nothing better to go on.

Funny thing: Hilary Hahn is such a good player that she doesn't need to rely on BS like that.
 

[deans]

4 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Funny thing: Hilary Hahn is such a good player that she doesn't need to rely on BS like that.

Yeah, her and her crappy $350,000 (or more?) instrument,  got to be really good to make one of those work.

Actually the more Vuillaumes I see the more impressed I am, maybe they are even undervalued.

 

[Rue]

The couple of 'contests' for lending instruments, that I'm vaguely familiar with, if I'm remembering correctly; the Winner/s will get the Biggest Name instrument/s.  The runners-up have options choosing between the Small Name instruments...

I have a friend who was very happy not to have 'won' the Big Name violin.  LOL...

But I'd have to check.  I could be wrong.

[PhilipKT]

28 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Funny thing: Hilary Hahn is such a good player that she doesn't need to rely on BS like that.

I think she plays on a Vuilluame, And she bought it herself.