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Yogic

Interesting T2 Violin

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What does the group think about this violin ? Is it close to being authentic ? Label looks good, branding at the end pin and also a silver emblem.I know its not because it is in T2 but still checking

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199257088&cpid=3672326144&filter_key=

Otello Bignami, Allievo G. Pollastri, 1 Premio 3 Concorso Nazionale di S. Cecilia, Fece in Bologna Bignami Otello 1977, Alla maniera del M.ro Augusto Pollastri" and "Incollatura del fondo, Otello Bignami, Allievo G. Pollastri, 1 Premio 3 Concorso Nazionale di S. Cecilia, Riparato in Bologna Bignami Otello 1979."

Branded to the inside back and the lower rib, "O. Bignami" and bearing a gold monogram "OB" to the button.

 

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There’s a former Bignami employee/student who has made some rather notorious fakes, IIRC.

Also, “close to being authentic” seems slippery.

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3 hours ago, Yogic said:

I know its not because it is in T2 but still checking

Just because an instrument is in a T2 does not automatically mean that the label is not authentic and original.

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2 hours ago, chrissweden said:

This is a Ausonia del Brocco violin... estimate seems normal and they sound terrible, move along.

Thank you. I was asked by a friend about this one.

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I did not seen any to be truly attractive. However, I may think three with the following links are somewhat interesting, and wish to know what they really are:

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?cpid=3656368128&csid=2199257088

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?cpid=3667017728&csid=2199257088

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?cpid=3657023488&csid=2199257088

Well, I am a novice anyway.

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Apparently, everyone is concerning the bidding thus is silent, which is understandable.

Please let us discuss the provenance after the auction.

To me, I just would like to take every opportunity to learn; I am not going to bid, either now or foreseeable future, as I am not lacking fiddles, including the better ones.

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On 6/28/2020 at 4:29 PM, zhiyi_zhang617 said:

I did not seen any to be truly attractive. However, I may think three with the following links are somewhat interesting, and wish to know what they really are:

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?cpid=3656368128&csid=2199257088

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?cpid=3667017728&csid=2199257088

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?cpid=3657023488&csid=2199257088

Well, I am a novice anyway.

Hi there,

Now auction has ended. Anyone would offer some insights on these fiddles?

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4 hours ago, zhiyi_zhang617 said:

Hi there,

Now auction has ended. Anyone would offer some insights on these fiddles?

All fake.

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

How can a violin "unlabelled, early 19th century" be a fake?

It was made to look like a real violin, but it's really just a knackered piece of rubbish.

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3 hours ago, Yogic said:

All fake.

Thank you.

But I would think that most of us on MN, including the novices like me probably know that none of them are Gagliano or Ruggeri. I guess my question is what they REALLY are. IOW, is the Gagliano labeled Lot 144 is a (nicer) German turn of the century copy? is Lot 185 a French or not? or Lot 141 is a hopeless rubbish or possibly a gem? etc.

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22 hours ago, zhiyi_zhang617 said:

Thank you.

But I would think that most of us on MN, including the novices like me probably know that none of them are Gagliano or Ruggeri. I guess my question is what they REALLY are. IOW, is the Gagliano labeled Lot 144 is a (nicer) German turn of the century copy? is Lot 185 a French or not? or Lot 141 is a hopeless rubbish or possibly a gem? etc.

In my opinion, a violin if not made by the maker is open to various interpretations.It can be German, French or Chinese. The worth of that violin is what someone is willing to pay for. Frankly, there is no point putting in effort on determining whether a fake is a German fake or an English fake etc or a nice German made copy.Serious players, dealers, collectors would stay away from it. Its like buying a nice Rolex replica watch.If its not genuine , it really has no value.

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1 hour ago, Yogic said:

Its like buying a nice Rolex replica watch.If its not genuine , it really has no value.

It's called an "homage", and, depending on the actual maker, you might be surprised.  Some fanatics actually build the things from parts,  and have forums, and everything.  Given the amount of automation, centralized production, use of ébauche, and the "60% rule" in the modern Swiss watch industry, many traditional luxury watches may have become homages to themselves.  :lol::)

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2 hours ago, Yogic said:

In my opinion, a violin if not made by the maker is open to various interpretations.It can be German, French or Chinese. The worth of that violin is what someone is willing to pay for. Frankly, there is no point putting in effort on determining whether a fake is a German fake or an English fake etc or a nice German made copy.Serious players, dealers, collectors would stay away from it. Its like buying a nice Rolex replica watch.If its not genuine , it really has no value.

This is nonsense.

Don't look at the label, work out what the violin is and what it's worth. 

If you deemed everything with an Amati label that wasn't an Amati to be valueless, you would write off thousands of great violins. Dutch makers were already using fake Amati labels in the 17th century.

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1 minute ago, martin swan said:

This is nonsense.

Don't look at the label, work out what the violin is and what it's worth. 

If you deemed everything with an Amati label that wasn't an Amati to be valueless, you would write off thousands of great violins. Dutch makers were already using fake Amati labels in the 17th century.

That requires a trained eye and many years of experience.If you are an amateur, buying such instruments on speculation will not end well.I tend to stay away from instruments that are not original to the label as I obviously do not have the expertise.

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35 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

It's called an "homage", and, depending on the actual maker, you might be surprised.  Some fanatics actually build the things from parts,  and have forums, and everything.  Given the amount of automation, centralized production, use of ébauche, and the "60% rule" in the modern Swiss watch industry, many traditional luxury watches may have become homages to themselves.  :lol::)

Thats true. But a homage watch will always remain a homage.It can never become an original. If you are a replica buff it works fine but serious collectors as far as I know appreciate originality

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14 minutes ago, Yogic said:

Thats true. But a homage watch will always remain a homage.It can never become an original. If you are a replica buff it works fine but serious collectors as far as I know appreciate originality

Be careful.  @jezzupe may wander over over here, and show you his Invictas.  :ph34r:

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I'm surprised the del Brocco sold for so much, maybe someone thought it was the real deal? The work is obviously not Bignami but del Brocco, if anyone has access to the Cozio archive it's a dead on match.

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11 hours ago, Yogic said:

In my opinion, a violin if not made by the maker is open to various interpretations.It can be German, French or Chinese. The worth of that violin is what someone is willing to pay for. Frankly, there is no point putting in effort on determining whether a fake is a German fake or an English fake etc or a nice German made copy.Serious players, dealers, collectors would stay away from it. Its like buying a nice Rolex replica watch.If its not genuine , it really has no value.

Over the years, I've read some bizarre and ridiculous proclamations on the auction scroll. This is right up there with them, it could even take the crown!

Your view that something is either real and valuable, or it is a fake and valueless, is naive in the extreme, and wholly incorrect.
Makers have been paying tribute and respect to the golden age for upwards of three hundred years, there are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of instruments made by excellent makers, copying the work of previous generations. Had some of these makers lived in a different country, or time, their work would be even more highly prized.

A Lupot isn't a Stradivari, but it could be better than quite a few Strads. It is hardly valueless.
Ignoring a violin which is a nice copy of the Alard Guarneri, because it's not the real thing, but is a fine J.B. Vuillaume, again hardly valueless. An English copy made by Lott, Voller, Hudson etc. will have a significant value in its own right.

The value is determined by the skill, reputation and success of the maker. Not simply by whether it is real, or a copy.

I imagine that you are either new to violins, or are buying at quite an inexpensive level, so I won't give you both barrels just yet.

 

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9 hours ago, Yogic said:

I tend to stay away from instruments that are not original to the label as I obviously do not have the expertise.

If you are deficient in expertise, how do you know the label is correct?

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