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Yogic

Who are the most respected Experts ?

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I would like to know who are the most well respected violin experts. I sent an instrument with a certificate of a renowned living fine instruments expert and the dealer pronounced it as a chinese copy. The certificate was of no consideration to him.What is happening these days is that dealers who have too much experience with copies are failing to spot an original when they see one.

Is a Reuning , Warren, Gindin certificate considered good for Italian instruments ? Or would an Eric Blot suffice ? With which expert would the buck stop ? Anyway one of the four experts I mentioned just now had their certificate rejected by this dealer.

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All of those names are considered "safe" and each have their own specialty. It is known for Blot and Carlsson to specialize in 20-21th century Italian violins.

I wonder who the dealer was that stated the violin to be Chinese.

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3 minutes ago, chrissweden said:

All of those names are considered "safe" and each have their own specialty. It is known for Blot and Carlsson to specialize in 20-21th century Italian violins.

I wonder who the dealer was that stated the violin to be Chinese.

I am based in the US. Would Carlson require instruments to be shipped overseas for a certificate? I wish I could mention who the dealer was but I prefer to move over this incident as it made me annoyed the whole of yesterday.

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Without more info, I think it is really hard to comment on this, and I'm not sure that Maestronet is really the right place for this kind of discussion.

There are numerous scenarios here, the certificate could be correct, it could be wrong, the dealer may have a feud going with the person who wrote the certificate, the violin might not be a straightforward example of the makers work, the dealer could be wrong etc. etc.

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1 minute ago, Wood Butcher said:

 

Well the instrument was quite straight forward and I don't think the dealer has any history. I am just asking for a little help to ensure I go to the right person for universal acceptance.

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The only things I can suggest are to show it to some different dealers and see what they say. If you show it to several, and they all believe the certificate is wrong then you may need to consult the person who issued it.

Or you can show the violin to other experts for opinions/certificates. Having multiple certs would be a very expensive way to resolve things however.

 

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4 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

The only things I can suggest are to show it to some different dealers and see what they say. If you show it to several, and they all believe the certificate is wrong then you may need to consult the person who issued it.

Or you can show the violin to other experts for opinions/certificates. Having multiple certs would be a very expensive way to resolve things however.

 

Thank you. For older French instruments like a Paul Blanchard, other than Rampal who can be considered experts ?

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Have there been any cases of people buying a genuine instrument with a certificate and then making an extremely accurate bench copy of said instrument and selling the copy with the certificate? Is this possible? 

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21 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

Have there been any cases of people buying a genuine instrument with a certificate and then making an extremely accurate bench copy of said instrument and selling the copy with the certificate? Is this possible? 

Realistically, not really.
The effort required would not make it feasable, unless the instrument was of a high value. Then the chances of having perfectly matching wood, wood that could dendro to the right dates, the knowledge and skill to replicate the varnish, brands, label, all the makers quirks...

Unless you are talking about a long time ago, before photo certs were common.

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Yeah this makes sense.

Although some of the photo certificates don't always have the greatest photos on them......

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44 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

Yeah this makes sense.

Although some of the photo certificates don't always have the greatest photos on them......

Agreed, older photos are terrible in some cases.

But how would you even sell the copy to be able to obtain the kind of money the real thing is worth?
Dealers will probably be able to out it pretty fast, so that rules them out. A similar thing would probably happen at a major auction house.
You're then left with trying to sell it privately, or cheaply, and hoping they won't show it to anyone, but that is unlikely when a lot of money is involved.

 

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Yeah as you say almost impossible unless it's a private sale. But I do wonder if some people are brazen enough or confident enough in their own skills to think they could pass it off to someone expecting they wouldn't consult an expert of high enough regard to dispute it, or atleast within a long enough period of time to pass to make a dispute difficult. 

Just thinking with my amateur fictional crime novel brain :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, Shelbow said:

Have there been any cases of people buying a genuine instrument with a certificate and then making an extremely accurate bench copy of said instrument and selling the copy with the certificate? Is this possible? 

There is a famous story about-I think-John Betts doing exactly that(Related in a book called, I think, “reminiscences of a fiddle dealer”) Somebody brought him, I think, a genuine Strad, but they brought it to him on the sly, and he copied it and returned the copy while keeping the original, but because they had themselves brought the original in secret they were powerless to do anything about it.

oh that John Betts! He lives on in so many…

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2 minutes ago, Fossil Ledges said:

Universal Acceptance! Oh my.

It would be like waiting for world peace. 

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My favorite story is Roger Hargraves'. The experts ID'd one of his copies and declared it to be authentic.

He had to fight with them, to prove he made it. ^_^

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6 minutes ago, Rue said:

My favorite story is Roger Hargraves'. The experts ID'd one of his copies and declared it to be authentic.

He had to fight with them, to prove he made it. ^_^

In the book, “the violin hunter” Vuilluame Relates to Tarisio the story of him copying Paganini’s Del Jesu. Paganini himself could not tell the difference...allegedly.

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13 minutes ago, Rue said:

My favorite story is Roger Hargraves'. The experts ID'd one of his copies and declared it to be authentic.

He had to fight with them, to prove he made it. ^_^

I do like this one. 

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7 hours ago, Rue said:

My favorite story is Roger Hargraves'. The experts ID'd one of his copies and declared it to be authentic.

He had to fight with them, to prove he made it. ^_^

That was in Vienna with the Dorotheum, until I walked in with a Viennese Konzertmeister and said, "Oh, thats Rogers violin"! I reported on that here, and in the following posts

7 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

In the book, “the violin hunter” Vuilluame Relates to Tarisio the story of him copying Paganini’s Del Jesu. Paganini himself could not tell the difference...allegedly.

The Vuilluame "copy" is in the same glass case as the "Cannon" in Genua, so you can see that Paganini must have had a big white walking stick

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4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

The Vuilluame "copy" is in the same glass case as the "Cannon" in Genua, so you can see that Paganini must have had a big white walking stick

Seeing them both side by side made me think rather that Vuillaume must have had a big white walking stick ...

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