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The Zuger theory


Andreas Preuss
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7 hours ago, MarkBouquet said:

 

I should point out that Barbra Streisand has been a generous donor to many causes beneficial to humanity, and she shouldn’t be judged by this event alone.

What makes you fit to presume to tell others how to judge her ????  Donations could be part tax part PR and the lawsuit ( and other similar stuff) show her to be a pretty horrible person. Court agreed.

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6 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Wow, I think it says a lot about her that she would have proceeded with this lawsuit, or even thought about it in the first place, I appreciate your sharing this with me. My problem with her is mainly her singing, which I despise. I have other problems with her, but boy do they start with her singing.

Thanks again for the information, I genuinely appreciate it.

She is indeed atrocious.

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2 hours ago, Eugen Modri said:

What makes you fit to presume to tell others how to judge her ????  Donations could be part tax part PR and the lawsuit ( and other similar stuff) show her to be a pretty horrible person. Court agreed.

What a strange remark. You wave the finger at MarkBouquet for doing something he isn't doing (telling other people how to judge Barbara Streisand), and then do exactly that yourself.

Twitter is a good place for this sort of aggressive short-form opining ...

 

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

What a strange remark. You wave the finger at MarkBouquet for doing something he isn't doing (telling other people how to judge Barbara Streisand), and then do exactly that yourself.

Twitter is a good place for this sort of aggressive short-form opining ...

 

I notice that you often interfere without actually reading the posts and take the airs of a forum moderator ( I read more than half MN by now... ). 

I think he is doing exactly that and by criticizing it I do not do exactly that. Please read the posts. You do understand that when he tells me not to judge he actually tells me to judge by not not judging ? Just checking.

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6 minutes ago, Eugen Modri said:

I notice that you often ... take the airs of a forum moderator ( I read more than half MN by now... ). 

 

Guilty as charged. I know it's not my place, but I would like Maestronet to be elevated to something better than a social media shitstorm.

It's particularly enervating to have to read outpourings of self-righteousness punctuated by swathes of aggressive question marks when it's not even about violins (or violinists).

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36 minutes ago, martin swan said:

but I would like Maestronet to be elevated to something better than a social media shitstorm.

This.

And Barbara Streisand is one of the greatest singers ever by virtually all measures, including more than 68.5 million sold albums in the U.S. and a total of 150 million worldwide. We are lucky to live in the age of Barbara Streisand.

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39 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Guilty as charged. I know it's not my place, but I would like Maestronet to be elevated to something better than a social media shitstorm.

It's particularly enervating to have to read outpourings of self-righteousness punctuated by swathes of aggressive question marks when it's not even about violins (or violinists).

I'm fine with that. All I ask is you read the posts and calibrate your indignation accordingly. And you keep in mind it goes both ways.

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11 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

This.

And Barbara Streisand is one of the greatest singers ever by virtually all measures, including more than 68.5 million sold albums in the U.S. and a total of 150 million worldwide. We are lucky to live in the age of Barbara Streisand.

Interesting. What other measures would you consider besides her impressive album sales ? Myself I would rather consider her an entertainer. I somehow don't think her actual singing is close to say,  Whitney Houston. I could come up with many more.

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8 minutes ago, Eugen Modri said:

What other measures would you consider besides her impressive album sales ?

Mostly my own ears and heart, but there are a just a few other things... :)

"Streisand is the only artist in history to receive an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony (the coveted EGOT), but also a Directors Guild Of America, Golden Globe, National Medal Of Arts, Peabody, France’s Légion d’honneur, the American Film Institute’s Lifetime Achievement Award and a Kennedy Center Honors designation. Oh, but there’s more. She won the Academy Award for Best Actress for Funny Girl and for Best Original Song for “Evergreen” from A Star Is Born. She was also nominated for Best Actress for The Way We Were and as a director, Streisand’s three films have received 14 Oscar nominations. The Brooklyn native has also won ten Grammy Awards including a Lifetime Achievement Award and a Legends Award."

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1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

Just a few other things... :)

"Streisand is the only artist in history to receive an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony (the coveted EGOT), but also a Directors Guild Of America, Golden Globe, National Medal Of Arts, Peabody, France’s Légion d’honneur, the American Film Institute’s Lifetime Achievement Award and a Kennedy Center Honors designation. Oh, but there’s more. She won the Academy Award for Best Actress for Funny Girl and for Best Original Song for “Evergreen” from A Star Is Born. She was also nominated for Best Actress for The Way We Were and as a director, Streisand’s three films have received 14 Oscar nominations. The Brooklyn native has also won ten Grammy Awards including a Lifetime Achievement Award and a Legends Award."

I think she's great as well.

I have a number of her albums buried under mounds of junk in the attic somewhere.

They must have been there for "ever ----- green" :lol:

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Guilty as charged. I know it's not my place, but I would like Maestronet to be elevated to something better than a social media shitstorm.

It's particularly enervating to have to read outpourings of self-righteousness punctuated by swathes of aggressive question marks when it's not even about violins (or violinists).

You’re right. I shouldn’t have said anything.

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On 6/27/2020 at 10:27 AM, reguz said:

Dear Mad, I'm but once again I must give the same answer as I have given so many times before and still is not understood. What I say is the arching shape does not collapse by the load on the bridge. The reason the bridge is so close the sound post the only structure on the violin that do not move by increasing string load.

That's simply wrong and uniformed.  The load transferred to the back by the soundpost distorts the back over time, requiring a succession of longer soundposts. Another strategy is to fit a super-tight soundpost iniitially, which is not without risks. But If neither are done, the treble side of the top (near the bridge) will come down.

So it would appear that in your singularly focused zeal, you have failed to think things through very thoroughly. Might it be better to start by learning from restorers who have vast experience with the distortions which take place over time?

On 6/27/2020 at 3:18 PM, Bruce Carlson said:

You mean like this? I'm really astounded it didn't catch on and blow away the competition!!!

1529157909_Vrizitonebassbar.thumb.jpg.24da7f9ad0faa59301f137bb6b97c733.jpg

Probably just lack of promotion. :lol:

23 hours ago, jezzupe said:

It really made a comeback in the world of cross country skiing and snow shoes however.

Residing in the frigid North, I can see how such a dual-purpose device could be very useful.

If only it had a third side with ice cleats, I might be a buyer. ;)

22 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

That actually looks very much like an artistic representation of a lizard on a sand dune. I’m sure @Rue Can verify the accuracy

Dang, it does! But I needed your suggestion to realize that. :)

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18 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

"There was quite a discussion on the topic back in Feb 2019  .... 10 pages worth with a lot of vector diagrams and "physics" of static structures and the same issues were brought up."

 

Why does the word "crackpot" keep popping into my mind over this stuff?

Because a quasi-static model is not proper even though it may appear natural to some.  What is needed is a wave equation plus the boundary conditions that relate the motion of different parts of the violin.   Such a wave equation will be very detailed and complicated.

By boundary conditions,  I mean the shapes of all the parts of the violin.  The wave equations give time-lags between the motion of one part and the motion of another part.  That is one of their principal purposes.

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3 hours ago, Johnmasters said:

Because a quasi-static model is not proper even though it may appear natural to some.  What is needed is a wave equation plus the boundary conditions that relate the motion of different parts of the violin.   Such a wave equation will be very detailed and complicated.

By boundary conditions,  I mean the shapes of all the parts of the violin.  The wave equations give time-lags between the motion of one part and the motion of another part.  That is one of their principal purposes.

While this is certainly the approach needed to produce rigorous physical answers about how violin structure produces violin sound given an energy input to follow, IMHO, the assembled members of MN have not reacted as they have because they are all sitting in front of their computers thinking, "OK, so shut up and show us your Lagrangians,".  :lol:

Much more likely, it's that the theorist under examination has reacted to results-coupled questioning with the sort of logical elegance and emotional reserve one normally associates with argumentative individuals in tinsel hats encountered on certain urban streetcorners.

I'll note, by way of contrast to what we have seen here in this and other, similar, threads, that in the case of someone mentioned in an earlier post, Keith Hill, who is well known for his aggressively premodern tuning theories, you neither get this sort of response when interviewing him, nor does he lack for personal luthiery skill/experience, examples of his work, or for a sample of luthiers supporting his claims by following his principles.  His stuff also sells.  This kind of evidence is much more persuasive to an audience of working luthiers, dealers, and players than simple ranting.  :)

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3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

While this is certainly the approach needed to produce rigorous physical answers about how violin structure produces violin sound given an energy input to follow, IMHO, the assembled members of MN have not reacted as they have because they are all sitting in front of their computers thinking, "OK, so shut up and show us your Lagrangians,".  :lol:

Much more likely, it's that the theorist under examination has reacted to results-coupled questioning with the sort of logical elegance and emotional reserve one normally associates with argumentative individuals in tinsel hats encountered on certain urban streetcorners.

I'll note, by way of contrast to what we have seen here in this and other, similar, threads, that in the case of someone mentioned in an earlier post, Keith Hill, who is well known for his aggressively premodern tuning theories, you neither get this sort of response when interviewing him, nor does he lack for personal luthiery skill/experience, examples of his work, or for a sample of luthiers supporting his claims by following his principles.  His stuff also sells.  This kind of evidence is much more persuasive to an audience of working luthiers, dealers, and players than simple ranting.  :)

You are likely right about the members of MN are not asking about Lagrangians.   I wrote what I did in order to point to Mr. Zuger that the real solutions are nothing he would have guessed.  I also realize that other MN people would not guess it either.   I was stating what I am sure is the essence of the problem.  

I see that you must be involved with math or science/engineering and my hat is off.  Yes,  finite element analysis ivolves solving many equations in many unknowns in a self-consistent converging method.  I don't know anything about such an algorithm,  but I know that it involves finding a convergence of some sort.  In the end,  something like a lagrangian approach is at least implicit.

So what is your background?   I have asked you this before.  And I was not talking to the MN folks in my response to Mr. Zuger.  I have exchanged letters with him on several occasions and still do not have much of an idea of what he has in mind.  

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2 hours ago, Johnmasters said:

So what is your background?

A bizarre mix of geophysics & geology, electronics, programming, aerospace, and writing.   With a combination like that, I have gotten dragged into all sorts of mischief.  :)

2 hours ago, Johnmasters said:

I was not talking to the MN folks in my response to Mr. Zuger.  I have exchanged letters with him on several occasions and still do not have much of an idea of what he has in mind.  

Are you sure that he has a clear idea of that himself?  :ph34r:

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15 hours ago, David Burgess said:

That's simply wrong and uniformed.  The load transferred to the back by the soundpost distorts the back over time, requiring a succession of longer soundposts. Another strategy is to fit a super-tight soundpost iniitially, which is not without risks. But If neither are done, the treble side of the top (near the bridge) will come down.

So it would appear that in your singularly focused zeal, you have failed to think things through very thoroughly. Might it be better to start by learning from restorers who have vast experience with the distortions which take place over time?

Probably just lack of promotion. :lol:

Residing in the frigid North, I can see how such a dual-purpose device could be very useful.

If only it had a third side with ice cleats, I might be a buyer. ;)

Dang, it does! But I needed your suggestion to realize that. :)

 

David. You say the back is going down by the action of the sound post. My opinion is tha the end block pull upp teh arching and a moment of force over the soundpost become produced. If the thickness= stiffness under the sound post is not strong enough that location will bend more than the arc shape on the bout. In fact on some violins you can observe a local bulging. Thus thsi is not what you believe its the other way around.

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4 hours ago, Violadamore said:

A bizarre mix of geophysics & geology, electronics, programming, aerospace, and writing.   With a combination like that, I have gotten dragged into all sorts of mischief.  :)

Are you sure that he has a clear idea of that himself?  :ph34r:

Thanks.    The question.....    Of course not.   That is why I quoted Wolfgang Pauli in the other thread.

" It is so messed up it is not even wrong."   

He is utterly pschizophrenic.  He cannot write anything in a letter.  He is Swedish,  I think,  but I do not think it is a language problem.  Maybe  he DOES have a clear idea.   It is just that his idea is bonafide delusion. 

It is a grandiose scheme and the only thing I can guess is that it is a kind of scaling to make the upper part similar to the lower part.  (I read original papers of his several years ago.)

 

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1 hour ago, reguz said:

David. You say the back is going down by the action of the sound post. My opinion is that ...

Structural analysis has nothing whatever to do with opinion: Its purpose is to reveal through meaningful discretisation of the system in question and subsequent systematic analysis how that system will perform under load.

Your posts on maestronet and the information on your own website repeatedly reveal that you are confusing the most fundamental aspect of such an analysis, namely the difference between internal forces/stresses and external forces / reactions. As a result, your very heavily discretised system bears little relation to an actual violin, and the analysis you are performing on it is also incorrect and producing misleading conclusions in your own mind.

What this and all other threads should have made clear to you by now is that no-one else sees the value in performing this basic static analysis of a violin, even if it were done correctly: This may be a sensible way to approach the design of a violin case from very expensive materials (where reducing the section of a structural component has tangible benefit), but not a violin. The function of a violin isn't to carry a static load at some minimum cost, but to produce a desirable sound when played, and your basic model and analysis is of no value in this direction.

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