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The Zuger theory


Andreas Preuss
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11 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

So the answer is that you have made no violins.

Well, in his defense, one does not need to make violins to think and or imagine about how they may work. It would seem to help, and may seem like a necessary thing so as to have some goal or reason for it all ,but I suppose it may be more like space travel, something I might think about but probably won't do, and even with a guy like Don, who could think about it even more seriously than I, something tells me he doesn't have a lawnchair  with rockets attached and a launchpad in his backyard.

getting someone to take you seriously is another matter all the way around,

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Judmging by his facebook page, Zuger appears to belong to a well established tradition of Scandinavian amateur experimenters - his principal activity seems to be scraping at the exterior of unvarnished violins (possibly cheaply bought Chinese instruments) in order to observe changes. Lots of people do this as a hobby, and some makers do it as part of a serious professional practice. A few years ago I met an elderly academic in Norway who was doing exactly this. He was profoundly engaged with what he was doing, but absolutely devoid of any ability to hear.

The problem with the Zuger approach is that it doesn't start with, or advance in any way, a concept of good tone or the function of the violin as a musical tool - it's merely a bad description of one way of understanding one aspect of the structure of a violin.

I think the didactical tone with which Zuger makes his "argument" ( though I haven't yet managed to work out what that argument is) may be down to some fundamental lack of understanding of the real process of violin-making, the quality of work of the members here, and maybe some more profound lack of engagement with the outside world.

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3 hours ago, reguz said:

How many did you made yourself. This eem to bee of great importans to you fro some reason.

While this was addressed to Wood Butcher, my response is that one of the easiest, most efficient and most valuable ways of assessing the value of a concept is by how well it has been demonstrated to work in practice.

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18 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Judmging by his facebook page, Zuger appears to belong to a well established tradition of Scandinavian amateur experimenters - his principal activity seems to be scraping at the exterior of unvarnished violins (possibly cheaply bought Chinese instruments) in order to observe changes. Lots of people do this as a hobby, and some makers do it as part of a serious professional practice. A few years ago I met an elderly academic in Norway who was doing exactly this. He was profoundly engaged with what he was doing, but absolutely devoid of any ability to hear.

The problem with the Zuger approach is that it doesn't start with, or advance in any way, a concept of good tone or the function of the violin as a musical tool - it's merely a bad description of one way of understanding one aspect of the structure of a violin.

I think the didactical tone with which Zuger makes his "argument" ( though I haven't yet managed to work out what that argument is) may be down to some fundamental lack of understanding of the real process of violin-making, the quality of work of the members here, and maybe some more profound lack of engagement with the outside world.

Reguz said: " If you like to see some of the instruments I made you may visit me on Facebook. Ther are some pictures. "

I agree with Martin. I also went by the FB page, and it's a lot of nothing. A few routed plates, and a couple unfinished instruments. Don't bother going there.

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5 hours ago, reguz said:

I hope you understand the instruments weight does not inctrease or move in any direction by string load. So what happens? Where are forces go and affect the structure? You seem to have an answer on that sop please explain for us.

I never claimed the overall weight of the instrument increased when string tension is added. Nor did I claim to have answers. I was merely trying to contribute to the discussion by asking some honest questions I had. 

As to what I think, I'm willing to guess that evenly distributing the pressure from the strings in the most efficient method possible will not make for a good musical instrument. Musical instruments (as a gross oversimplification) sound better the closer they come to collapsing. True, a violin arch may not be the most efficient or strongest method to support the string load. Same can be said about guitar x bracing or the thin head of a banjo. But, these designs are used because these are the best compromises found (thus far) between structural integrity and sound produced. If the only goal is to bear the string load the best way possible, then just put some strings on a steel block.  I'm willing to bet it's not going to sound good, if at all, but it will not creep, deform, or move in any way when the strings are brought up to tension.

Tl;dr- all good instruments are fragile. Building only for strength kills the sound, while building only for sound can cause the thing to collapse. Good makers can find that perfect median between great tone, and structural integrity.

You asked for my thoughts, so that is what I think. If any maker whose made a good few completed instruments knows more, please refute anything wrong. I wanna learn more. There's much benefit to good, open discussion.

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2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

While this was addressed to Wood Butcher, my response is that one of the easiest, most efficient and most valuable ways of assessing the value of a concept is by how well it has been demonstrated to work in practice.

Yes David, but it is far more difficult making multiple marching shape and thsu it is difficult to know and produce multiple result. My research is making a number of instruemnets with the same structure as it comes to the geometry and I graduate the thickness different due to the different wood quality. I make three equal instruments, just now, and give them all the same mode 2 and 5 and finally (not yet) I get the acoustic result. Howvever I also must adjust the dynamic condition and that I do by polishing the varnish or scraping the wood surface.

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3 minutes ago, Mad picker said:

I never claimed the overall weight of the instrument increased when string tension is added. Nor did I claim to have answers. I was merely trying to contribute to the discussion by asking some honest questions I had. 

As to what I think, I'm willing to guess that evenly distributing the pressure from the strings in the most efficient method possible will not make for a good musical instrument. Musical instruments (as a gross oversimplification) sound better the closer they come to collapsing. True, a violin arch may not be the most efficient or strongest method to support the string load. Same can be said about guitar x bracing or the thin head of a banjo. But, these designs are used because these are the best compromises found (thus far) between structural integrity and sound produced. If the only goal is to bear the string load the best way possible, then just put some strings on a steel block.  I'm willing to bet it's not going to sound good, if at all, but it will not creep, deform, or move in any way when the strings are brought up to tension.

Tl;dr- all good instruments are fragile. Building only for strength kills the sound, while building only for sound can cause the thing to collapse. Good makers can find that perfect median between great tone, and structural integrity.

You asked for my thoughts, so that is what I think. If any maker whose made a good few completed instruments knows more, please refute anything wrong. I wanna learn more. There's much benefit to good, open discussion.

Dear Mad, I'm but once again I must give the same answer as I have given so many times before and still is not understood. What I say is the arching shape does not collapse by the load on the bridge. The reason the bridge is so close the sound post the only structure on the violin that do not move by increasing string load. The sound post is principally the center of ratationof all surraunding structure. Once again test what I write Stay on a scale (in your bathroom) with a plöank under your feet (say 3m) and fit a rope on the plank ends. Take the rope in your hand astart pulling while you at the sam,e time observe what happens on the scale. NOTHING. What happens is that the plank on both side start bending due to the moment of force. Equal condition on the violin but there we have different lenght that produce the moment of force and also different structure and stiffness. We cannot expext that the stress conditions that arise on thelower and upper bout are equel. This means that they cannot react equal when a string is played. Ajustment is needed and you can do this by moving the sound post along the lenght axis. You try to find out the best position but still there is more to do. If your plate are to this you like to have less outward bulding (=stress condition). This you adjust by moving the sound post sideward. The basic figure the isoscale trapeziod with the two basis, sound post and end block, do not schange but thelegs will change. Since the curve on the leg of the trape... alway remain with its lenght the chordline underneath must do and that make the curve less or more wich produce different stress on the bout shape. The curve simply move up or down. This will change sound quality since the produced sound depend on stress as it is with the stress on the string by moving your finger. What prevent collapsing is the STL fram-work. That structure do not deflect but the outside STL must have ainside STL underneath other vise the center line in order to be straight must allow deflection. That we must prevent otherwise we can not trust the frame work to do its work. This is what my research has learned me. Hope you can follow my explanation.

Ther is a research project going on checking the quality of the STL framework using FEA.

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13 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Aren't Virzi tone disruptors producers a mandolin controversy, rather than violin related?  :)

The Virzi brothers made violins for a living. They won awards for their violins. The original Virzi tone producer was a violin thing and the guess is that they made over a thousand violins with these plates.  Lloyd Loar played violin and considered the violins made by the Virzi brother's outstanding. Thus came Virzi plates in mandolins.

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1 hour ago, Uncle Bob said:

The Virzi brothers made violins for a living. They won awards for their violins. The original Virzi tone producer was a violin thing and the guess is that they made over a thousand violins with these plates.  Lloyd Loar played violin and considered the violins made by the Virzi brother's outstanding. Thus came Virzi plates in mandolins.

Yup, I'd forgotten about this, mentally filed it away with "patent bass bars".  It's been discussed here in the past.

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/259792-virzi-tone-producer-1924-violin/

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/215371-virzi-violin/

Perhaps @PhilipKT would comment, he has owned one.  :)

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24 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Yup, I'd forgotten about this, mentally filed it away with "patent bass bars".  It's been discussed here in the past.

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/259792-virzi-tone-producer-1924-violin/

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/215371-virzi-violin/

Perhaps @PhilipKT would comment, he has owned one.  :)

Ha! Down memory lane. I don’t remember what that Violin looked like, although until recently I had kept the skinner catalog that included it, But I remember it was beautiful, sounded good and was bought cheap and sold almost as cheap. I think Virzi violins were actually quite good, gimmickry aside. At one time, I was getting “Virzi” mixed up with “Voller”.... wish I’d been able to pick up a Voller or two for the same price.

I wonder if they’re as good as Juzeks...mmmmmmm....

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8 hours ago, martin swan said:

Judmging by his facebook page, Zuger appears to belong to a well established tradition of Scandinavian amateur experimenters - his principal activity seems to be scraping at the exterior of unvarnished violins (possibly cheaply bought Chinese instruments) in order to observe changes. Lots of people do this as a hobby, and some makers do it as part of a serious professional practice. A few years ago I met an elderly academic in Norway who was doing exactly this. He was profoundly engaged with what he was doing, but absolutely devoid of any ability to hear.

The problem with the Zuger approach is that it doesn't start with, or advance in any way, a concept of good tone or the function of the violin as a musical tool - it's merely a bad description of one way of understanding one aspect of the structure of a violin.

I think the didactical tone with which Zuger makes his "argument" ( though I haven't yet managed to work out what that argument is) may be down to some fundamental lack of understanding of the real process of violin-making, the quality of work of the members here, and maybe some more profound lack of engagement with the outside world.

In fact,  there is no initial mention of what the central idea of the approach is supposed to be.  To paraphrase pysicist Wolgang Pauli,  "It is so messed up,  it is not even wrong."

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1 hour ago, MarkBouquet said:

This discussion is reminding me of the “Streisand Effect” (You can look it up if you don’t already know it.) There’s too much attention being given to something that just doesn’t merit it.

If you mean that Barbra Streisand gets way too much attention, I agree completely.

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25 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

If you mean that Barbra Streisand gets way too much attention, I agree completely.

No. The Streisand effect refers to a situation where an aerial photographer made a 12,000 image survey of the California coast for an environmental organization to establish a baseline for monitoring coastal erosion, and posted the survey to the internet. One of those images just happened to include a picture of Streisand’s Malibu sea cliff home. She had her attorneys sue the photographer for $50 million in damages for invasion of privacy, and demanded that the photo be taken down. The irony was that prior to her lawsuit the image had only been viewed six times, two of those times by Streisand’s own attorneys. After the lawsuit hit the news it was viewed hundreds of thousands of times in just the few following months. She lost the suit and was required to pay the photographer’s legal fees. It wasn’t as if there was a caption on the photo that said “THIS IS BARBRA STREISAND’S HOUSE.” So the Streisand effect has become a generic term to describe an internet situation where it’s sometimes better to ignore something than to publicly argue endlessly about it. It just seemed to fit this situation, to me anyway.

I should point out that Barbra Streisand has been a generous donor to many causes beneficial to humanity, and she shouldn’t be judged by this event alone.

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1 hour ago, catnip said:

There was quite a discussion on the topic back in Feb 2019  .... 10 pages worth with a lot of vector diagrams and "physics" of static structures and the same issues were brought up.

52 minutes ago, MarkBouquet said:

 it’s sometimes better to ignore something than to publicly argue endlessly about it.

At the risk of adding a few more lines to this internet discussion...   yes.

 

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1 hour ago, MarkBouquet said:

No. The Streisand effect refers to a situation where an aerial photographer made a 12,000 image survey of the California coast for an environmental organization to establish a baseline for monitoring coastal erosion, and posted the survey to the internet. One of those images just happened to include a picture of Streisand’s Malibu sea cliff home. She had her attorneys sue the photographer for $50 million in damages for invasion of privacy, and demanded that the photo be taken down. The irony was that prior to her lawsuit the image had only been viewed six times, two of those times by Streisand’s own attorneys. After the lawsuit hit the news it was viewed hundreds of thousands of times in just the few following months. She lost the suit and was required to pay the photographer’s legal fees. It wasn’t as if there was a caption on the photo that said “THIS IS BARBRA STREISAND’S HOUSE.” So the Streisand effect has become a generic term to describe an internet situation where it’s sometimes better to ignore something than to publicly argue endlessly about it. It just seemed to fit this situation, to me anyway.

I should point out that Barbra Streisand has been a generous donor to many causes beneficial to humanity, and she shouldn’t be judged by this event alone.

Wow, I think it says a lot about her that she would have proceeded with this lawsuit, or even thought about it in the first place, I appreciate your sharing this with me. My problem with her is mainly her singing, which I despise. I have other problems with her, but boy do they start with her singing.

Thanks again for the information, I genuinely appreciate it.

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