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11 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I don't doubt that you have invested considerable time. But that does not automatically equate to value.

Let's say two people show up for an orchestra position audition: One has practiced eight hours per day, and the playing kinda sucks.  The other, who has practiced only two hours per day plays much better. Which do you suppose will get the job?

You are claiming that you haven't been offered any feedback worth considering? I asked this in another thread, with no response from you:

"While there can be tiny parts of a top or back which may loosely resemble (pyramids or) octahedrons, (with the assistance of some highly-creative imagination), the majority of a violin does not. Why have you chosen to put emphasis on such a tiny part of the whole of a violin? "

Thats a good question David. I will do my utmost giving an answer. First, all arching shape has a transition from vonvex too concave. This happens to arise on a straight line that you can hold a ruler on so no light come though. Yes all archings does have this quality but not all have an what I see as an optimal condition. The reason, the extentions of the STL lines you are able to mark but they do not come out at the same location nessasarraly. Not on the centre line and neither on the out line. When string load start deflection the bout we cannot other than accept that the stress that arises will be not symetric. In other words you do not now anything what it can be. I liked to make a arching shape whre it became possible to do this and I did my research constructing arching shape with some special sytructural condition including the transition making the STL condition. If you read my papers you are able to see a image that show that arc shapes from the out line into the center always have equal shape condition in the upper and lower bout. This means it becomes possible to give them structural quality (= wood and thickness) so the become equal stress on many places areas. This is one of my research creteria. (stupid idea?) I succeded and also with mathematical calculation could give proof that the shape mentione above also produce STL condition, second quality.

A third quality that arises is that you turn over the layout of the iso line lower bout location too cover the upper bout location. You can do the same with the out line of the violin shape.

With these found qualities it became important too me to find out what will the sound result of such instrument be. How does it function. I made a routing technique som I could route all iso lines with 0,1 mm precition in layout shape as well level condition. I made sevaral such staircase plates and wit scraping finished the surface, completed the plate with inner shape and make them having equel mode 2 and 5. I found out that it became able to produce 3 times mode 5 (read and see in my papers) so I got a unexpected strtuctural condition. Nowing all this I talked to makesr and proposed them to make their arching with STL condition. I am an amatear and only interrested in the structure and function of the instrument. The makers of the plates some of them I help with pre routed surface all got extreme good result. Actually the best result ever. I tought it could be of interrest to other makers and put my findings on the internet and tried too find interrest on Maestronet.

You know the result. Some of you can only say bad things and at leastr one hold such an intelöligent level that is over my head, he does not write but communicate with symbols.

I have put thousand of ours in making instruments and even more hours finding out how they actually work. I believe I have a good understanding of THIS structure but cannot say what your or any other mnakers archings will be able to produce. Those how I have helped understand that STL condition that sectorise the arching shape are important. They work as a frame work and it becomes possible reducing thickness. The plate simple do not collapse even after long time. 

Enough about this. Read my papers 

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I think this is an example of over-analyzing a structure to find some interesting "mathematical" properties such as straight line modelling of 3D surfaces.  In any case it lead me to find some other examples where mathematics can be used to describe art or music but is not essential to the understanding of the topic.  So my summary is interesting but not essential.

Here is a video of something similar... the vector space of two note chords can be described a Möbius strip...link here

On that site is another video "Mathematical Impressions: Curved and Straight?"  which I also found interesting

 

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5 hours ago, reguz said:

...optimal...

I think that anyone who uses words like "optimal" or "perfect" or "best", without specifying which player it is suited for, does not understand violins.  It is all a balance and trade-off of structure, sound, and playability, depending on what the player prefers... and players are different.

While I am not arguing that this specific method will NOT end up with a decent functional violin, there are many, many methods that are used with success, and many ways to be functional (or not).

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14 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

Mr Z chastised us for not absorbing his site, so I went and did so. Here's my report:

First off, there may be material I have missed. Some sections have flash media presentations. Of course, that's now a depreciated (outdated, no longer viable) media form and my browser is unable to see them, so I may have missed something important. If so, it's up to him to replace the videos with something current.  I'll be talking only about the other information presented on the site.

In the articles on his site there are bits of white violins shown as in-process examples. Since he doesn't seem to be into answering any questions, a huge error for someone who's trying to establish a dialog,  I'll just say that it looks like he's at least working with someone who appears to be reasonably competent, from the tiny bits shown. Could it possibly be this person? http://www.atelierlabussiere.com/luthier.htm   Anyway, he's got several videos on youtube about using the Zuger process, so there's that.

I went through most of the stuff on the site. It's got iso layouts from people like Sacconi,  but it's thin on reasonable explanation as to how those prove anything (y'all have heard me complain about how Sacconi's isos manage to avoid telling nearly everything that's of interest to know, since they give isolated and distant points without any idea of what's between them). So where I read Sacconi's charts as frustratingly indeterminate apparently to Z. it proves his geometry. In fact, he has some illustrations that appear to argue some things that are totally impossible, but since he doesn't explain them, I could be misreading them. I'm pretty sure we won't be getting any answers about that, the way things are going.

He's got a lot on generating and using templates to establish what his arch will be. It's reasonably thorough and easy to follow. That's probably the strongest part of the site.

It appears that the extent of the site is to explain the design of a totally unproven product, without showing the product. So we know how to make it, but no idea what's supposed to happen when we do. There are no claims and no discussion of intention. There's no discussion at all about results, in fact, there aren't even any claims about results. So with what's given there, it seems to be an exercise in theoretical geometry, with a whole lot of nothing about the things we'd really want to know. It implies a connection to the past, through second generation data (iso charts, not the real violins).

As far as is available on the site, virtually none of the parameters that I consider important for manipulating violin sound are mentioned, and the theory seems divorced from the normal ways of evaluatning instruments. Two spectral graphs are given, but they seem mostly about convincing people that violins have spectral outputs. . . they don't seem to relate to anything relevant.  As near as I can find, there is absolutely zero on the site regarding anything about sound or his intent regarding sound, so inasmuch as it's possible to entirely miss the point about the violin, I think he has managed to do that to perfection.

I have a feeling that Mr Z thinks that the greatness of his scheme is self-evident, which it certainly not, and since it appears to want to do absolutely nothing to enlighten us and seems immune to polite discussion it would be nice, but impossible for this crowd to do, to not feed the troll.

Michael, thank you very much for such a detailed analysis, and your opinions.

14 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

The whole thing is a mechanic model and like all mechanic models aiming at using machines to manufacture it. 

I think he showed somewhere a top in the middle of a CNC process. 

There again I see a problem because it ignores completely material properties. It is like working with plastic or steel. (Making this comment to Robert Zuger created an avalanche of e mails which sounded to me like a religious preacher who thinks he needs to safe me from the devil in not believing his creed)

Nevertheless, some time ago I put some serious effort into trying to figure out at the bench what it is all about.  I can only say that using a straight ruler as a quick check guide for the arching is a simple effective device to make a nice and slim looking arching. But in this process I don't look for certain positions of straight lines. It can also be used for quick checking the arching symmetry. But definitely not more. Did my violins improve dramatically in sound quality and projection etc. etc.? The blant answer is no. 

So if anything, maybe Cremonese makers had similar practical thoughts, but certainly not more. 

You need to ask people in Sweden if his violins are in the hands of professional musicians. I think there are a few MN participants from Sweden.

Thanks Andreas, the question has been asked several times, and each time was ignored. I think it's now safe to say Mr Zuger has not made any violins, other than one experimental prototype, or parts thereof.

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5 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Michael, thank you very much for such a detailed analysis, and your opinions.

Thanks Andreas, the question has been asked several times, and each time was ignored. I think it's now safe to say Mr Zuger has not made any violins, other than one experimental prototype, or parts thereof.

That explains a lot. 

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5 hours ago, reguz said:

.

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. This means it becomes possible to give them structural quality (= wood and thickness) so the become equal stress on many places areas. 

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Excuse my ignorance, but aren't there some problems with this theory when the ff holes, sound post, and bass bar are added? Don't they help bear the load (or in the case of the holes, stop that section from bearing weight), making it impossible to evenly distribute the string tension? And is evenly distributing the forces necessarily a good thing (i.e. if a part of the plate is not bearing weight, will it be more free to vibrate?)? And if a plate is evenly holding the weight, is that a guarantee that the plate won't deform or creep over time?

Just some thoughts from a (very) ameture(sp) fiddle maker.

 

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4 hours ago, Don Noon said:

I think that anyone who uses words like "optimal" or "perfect" or "best", without specifying which player it is suited for, does not understand violins.  It is all a balance and trade-off of structure, sound, and playability, depending on what the player prefers... and players are different.

While I am not arguing that this specific method will NOT end up with a decent functional violin, there are many, many methods that are used with success, and many ways to be functional (or not).

Don, What I do is construction and the ideas behind e specific structural shape surtainly can be optimal. SUCH CONDITION CONSTRUCTUAL ACHIEVED AS A GOAL WAS THAT WE ALWAYS CAN FIND FOUR EQUAL CURVE SHAPE FROM THE OUIT LINE INTO THE CENTER. tHRE ARE THOUNSANDS OF THEM. THAT IS FROM MY CONSTRUCTION POIN OF VIEUW OPTIMAL. YOU CAN MEASURE THE QUALITY . THAT IS IMPORTANT. i DO NOT TALK i SHOW HOW IT WORKS.AND DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE SOUND FUNCTION. ITS IN THE BEGINNING OF ME RESEARCH SANMD STRUCTURAL WORK ACHIEVING SOMETHING.

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4 hours ago, Mad picker said:

 

First we sart by making a specific arching shape with sevaral qualities. I do not look at all what sound may come out. After that I searched for how does that structure become stress. Which part ie bendin7buckling more than other. How is the volume of that structure affected. Parameters such as specific wood quality are not considered at that time since we have may different wood qualities and it is not possible to make any good understanding that far. The shape of the arching has large impact on hoe long time creep will and can affect the structure. When I found that there is a frame work that hold far higher rigidity the crved arch shapes I understoofd the importans and by theoretical thinking I could see tha there was a function no one ever (as far as I found) has written about. I made a investigation with holografic tools and could show the exsistent function. Thats all research work not claiming anything. The structure I made hold these quality. 

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5 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Michael, thank you very much for such a detailed analysis, and your opinions.

Thanks Andreas, the question has been asked several times, and each time was ignored. I think it's now safe to say Mr Zuger has not made any violins, other than one experimental prototype, or parts thereof.

 

4 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

That explains a lot. 

 

5 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Michael, thank you very much for such a detailed analysis, and your opinions.

Thanks Andreas, the question has been asked several times, and each time was ignored. I think it's now safe to say Mr Zuger has not made any violins, other than one experimental prototype, or parts thereof.

Wood Butcher, from what wisom did you make your anounment, Zuger did probably made only one prototype instrument?

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The lowest-distorting shape for a violin top would probably involve something very close to straight lines from the upper and lower blocks to the bridge, and perhaps straight lines to the bridge from  every point on the rib perimeter. However, I would not expect this to be a very efficient sound radiator.

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45 minutes ago, reguz said:

 

 

Wood Butcher, from what wisom did you make your anounment, Zuger did probably made only one prototype instrument?

Maybe not even one instrument?

"I am an amatear and only interrested in the structure and function of the instrument. The makers of the plates some of them I help with pre routed surface all got extreme good result. Actually the best result ever. I tought it could be of interrest to other makers and put my findings on the internet and tried too find interrest on Maestronet. "

Still no answer about how many instruments you have made. And we haven't seen any pictures of instruments, or your making process.

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59 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

The lowest-distorting shape for a violin top would probably involve something very close to straight lines from the upper and lower blocks to the bridge, and perhaps straight lines to the bridge from  every point on the rib perimeter. However, I would not expect this to be a very efficient sound radiator.

Definitely the most structurally "optimal" shape is one that connects all load points with straight lines.  Any curvature introduces bending, which is extremely inefficient and prone to buckling.  Arches are good for distributed load, but the violin is essentially a point-loaded structure. 

When I get bored of making instruments that work, I can easily model such a plate and cut one out with CNC to see what it sounds like.  I expect it will make some kind of sound, but likely not what anyone would want.

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21 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

Definitely the most structurally "optimal" shape is one that connects all load points with straight lines.  Any curvature introduces bending, which is extremely inefficient and prone to buckling.  Arches are good for distributed load, but the violin is essentially a point-loaded structure. 

When I get bored of making instruments that work, I can easily model such a plate and cut one out with CNC to see what it sounds like.  I expect it will make some kind of sound, but likely not what anyone would want.

Somewhere there is an island that is ruled by a friendly lion king, there on the island are all the instruments and sounds that no one wanted reside, the island of misfit instruments, I have a few there. 

I suppose If it wasn't for this "Zuger thing" we'd all have one less thing to do....it's fun and all, but after awhile starts to feel like " we like making fun of the handicapped" and well anyone who has actually made instruments won't get much out of it, but by all means it is and shall always be an "informational" landmine that is always floating out there in the internet just waiting for some unsuspecting newbie to step on, like taptones

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6 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

.............it is and shall always be an "informational" landmine that is always floating out there in the internet just waiting for some unsuspecting newbie to step on, like taptones

[Draws and slices at a banded kreit (which disappears into the information undergrowth), then mutters, "Darn, how many heads do these things have?" ;)]

There's a good many of them to avoid.  Perhaps if we occasionally awarded a "Petherick Prize", on a level with the Ig Nobel and the Darwin Award?  :huh::lol:

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11 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

[Draws and slices at a banded kreit (which disappears into the information undergrowth), then mutters, "Darn, how many heads do these things have?" ;)]

There's a good many of them to avoid.  Perhaps if we occasionally awarded a "Petherick Prize", on a level with the Ig Nobel and the Darwin Award?  :huh::lol:

We should do that, come up with an awards ceremony for the most complex sounding yet useless theory of the year

I was working on my thesis "power tools hurt the woods feelings" and "sandpaper,is it cheating?" and "Yes, you can eat shellac but should you? :rolleyes:

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While I am finding this all very interesting, this discussion has ignored Keith Hill, tap tones, carving variations in the support structures and Virizi plates. I suppose we can forgive the lack of discussion about wood and finish variations since College Station was mentioned, but without at least a warm argument over tap tones, this thread is still lacking. :)

I am pleased that the Jezzupe has made the effort to make this a more complete discussion, but honestly we deserve more.

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Just now, Violadamore said:

Aren't Virzi tone disruptors producers a mandolin controversy, rather than violin related?  :)

They put them in all sorts of things including  -  but not  limited to - violins, guitars and mandolins. I played a Loar F-5 that still had one and sounded rather nice...

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18 hours ago, Mad picker said:

 

I hope you understand the instruments weight does not inctrease or move in any direction by string load. So what happens? Where are forces go and affect the structure? You seem to have an answer on that sop please explain for us.

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13 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

Maybe not even one instrument?

"I am an amatear and only interrested in the structure and function of the instrument. The makers of the plates some of them I help with pre routed surface all got extreme good result. Actually the best result ever. I tought it could be of interrest to other makers and put my findings on the internet and tried too find interrest on Maestronet. "

Still no answer about how many instruments you have made. And we haven't seen any pictures of instruments, or your making process.

Do the number of made instruments say anything special for you? If you like to see some of the instruments I made you may visit me on Facebook. Ther are some pictures.

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14 hours ago, reguz said:

Wood Butcher, from what wisom did you make your anounment, Zuger did probably made only one prototype instrument?

I had asked several times, along with others, if you had made any violins. There seemed to be no answer to this several times, although I can see you had quite a number of posts to respond to ;)

From your website, there are no pictures of any finished instruments, only parts. Perhaps when it comes to prototypes, more than one is needed, if the first results proved to be unsatisfactory.

If you are a violin maker, and have made and sold a lot of them, then of course I will withdraw my statement and also apologize to you.

How many violins have you made personally?

 

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46 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

I had asked several times, along with others, if you had made any violins. There seemed to be no answer to this several times, although I can see you had quite a number of posts to respond to ;)

From your website, there are no pictures of any finished instruments, only parts. Perhaps when it comes to prototypes, more than one is needed, if the first results proved to be unsatisfactory.

If you are a violin maker, and have made and sold a lot of them, then of course I will withdraw my statement and also apologize to you.

How many violins have you made personally?

 

How many did you made yourself. This eem to bee of great importans to you fro some reason. I'm not a professional violin maker but I can say you cannot learn any by looking at a picture. That's the reason why I have choosen not publishing pictures. But take a look on my Facebook. I hope that satisfy your demand. I see nothing extra for you or any other to learn by that.

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