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The Zuger theory


Andreas Preuss

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1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

Would there be any benefit to a Layman investigating this? If for no other reason then to expand awareness of varying theories? Or is this like phlebotomy?

In college station Texas is a maker by the name of Nagyvery(I think) Who had a theory about a certain treatment of the wood Strad used, And made a number of violence based on that theory, one of which was owned by a colleague of mine, and sounded quite good. But I have not heard mention of him in many years.

Nagyvary has had a succession of theories over time, from varnishes made from dissolved shrimp shells. to varnishes incorporating jewels, to the advantages of short fingerboards.

I spent some time with him recently, and he's really a pretty interesting and fascinating guy, although I did not find the examples of fiddles he had there with shorter or lighter fingerboards to offer anything special. And he really liked a fiddle of mine which happened to have a super-heavy fingerboard, which was a little longer than usual.

Probably depends on the particular fiddle something is used on though,  like just about everything from strings, to chinrests, to bows. To draw any sort of meaningful general conclusions, a huge sample size will be needed.

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 I believe you all can imagine that what is shown on the internet site has taken some time to write and still all the answers thusfar has been able too read and consider some in some minutes other probably one  hour. This is fantastic!!! congratulations. What I could expect would be that any of you could say any valuable so I at least got something to consider. But nothing!!!!

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22 hours ago, reguz said:

 I believe you all can imagine that what is shown on the internet site has taken some time to write and still all the answers thusfar has been able too read and consider some in some minutes other probably one  hour. This is fantastic!!! congratulations. What I could expect would be that any of you could say any valuable so I at least got something to consider. But nothing!!!!

I don't doubt that you have invested considerable time. But that does not automatically equate to value.

Let's say two people show up for an orchestra position audition: One has practiced eight hours per day, and the playing kinda sucks.  The other, who has practiced only two hours per day plays much better. Which do you suppose will get the job?

You are claiming that I haven't been offered any feedback worth considering? I asked this in another thread, with no response from you:

"While there can be tiny parts of a top or back which may loosely resemble (pyramids or) octahedrons, (with the assistance of some highly-creative imagination), the majority of a violin does not. Why have you chosen to put emphasis on such a tiny part of the whole of a violin? "

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3 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

 Or is this like phlebotomy?

......... made a number of violence based on that theory, one of which was owned by a colleague of mine, and sounded quite good. But I have not heard mention of him in many years.

Lobotomy might be a better comparison.  You meant philosophy, right?

Pity your colleague disappeared, probably incarcerated for the violence.

BTW, while your chat app's auto-correct isn't nearly as brilliant as you are, it does seem to have some comedic talents.  :huh:  :ph34r:  :lol:

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Should I also have said "pyrami", rather than pyramids? ;)

No, if Jacob's being a "Greco-Latin" purist, the plural is "pyramides".  Latin "pyramis" is the singular.  "Octahedrons" is perfectly acceptable in modern English.  :)

 

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51 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Lobotomy might be a better comparison.  You meant philosophy, right?

Pity your colleague disappeared, probably incarcerated for the violence.

BTW, while your chat app's auto-correct isn't nearly as brilliant as you are, it does seem to have some comedic talents.  :huh:  :ph34r:  :lol:

One of my very beloved former students spent a long time working on the Kabalevsky concerto. Never once did my AutoCorrect get the name right, but also, never once did the auto correct repeat a misspelling. It was always funny to see it what would come up with next. 

Ironically, “phlebotomy” was correct. Phlebotomy was an old pseudo science centered around the study of the bumps on the head. I was Suggesting that what we are discussing here might be the same, although honestly, I’m not educated enough to comment one way or the other.

And again, the joke’s on me. I was thinking of “PHRENOLOGY”

Phlebotomy is drawing blood.. sheesh.

But I cry mercy because I took my mom The doctor today and she had to give blood.

Edited by PhilipKT
Ich bin dum
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1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

Anyway, does anyone know if Mr Zuger has made any violins?

Mr Z chastised us for not absorbing his site, so I went and did so. Here's my report:

First off, there may be material I have missed. Some sections have flash media presentations. Of course, that's now a depreciated (outdated, no longer viable) media form and my browser is unable to see them, so I may have missed something important. If so, it's up to him to replace the videos with something current.  I'll be talking only about the other information presented on the site.

In the articles on his site there are bits of white violins shown as in-process examples. Since he doesn't seem to be into answering any questions, a huge error for someone who's trying to establish a dialog,  I'll just say that it looks like he's at least working with someone who appears to be reasonably competent, from the tiny bits shown. Could it possibly be this person? http://www.atelierlabussiere.com/luthier.htm   Anyway, he's got several videos on youtube about using the Zuger process, so there's that.

I went through most of the stuff on the site. It's got iso layouts from people like Sacconi,  but it's thin on reasonable explanation as to how those prove anything (y'all have heard me complain about how Sacconi's isos manage to avoid telling nearly everything that's of interest to know, since they give isolated and distant points without any idea of what's between them). So where I read Sacconi's charts as frustratingly indeterminate apparently to Z. it proves his geometry. In fact, he has some illustrations that appear to argue some things that are totally impossible, but since he doesn't explain them, I could be misreading them. I'm pretty sure we won't be getting any answers about that, the way things are going.

He's got a lot on generating and using templates to establish what his arch will be. It's reasonably thorough and easy to follow. That's probably the strongest part of the site.

It appears that the extent of the site is to explain the design of a totally unproven product, without showing the product. So we know how to make it, but no idea what's supposed to happen when we do. There are no claims and no discussion of intention. There's no discussion at all about results, in fact, there aren't even any claims about results. So with what's given there, it seems to be an exercise in theoretical geometry, with a whole lot of nothing about the things we'd really want to know. It implies a connection to the past, through second generation data (iso charts, not the real violins).

As far as is available on the site, virtually none of the parameters that I consider important for manipulating violin sound are mentioned, and the theory seems divorced from the normal ways of evaluatning instruments. Two spectral graphs are given, but they seem mostly about convincing people that violins have spectral outputs. . . they don't seem to relate to anything relevant.  As near as I can find, there is absolutely zero on the site regarding anything about sound or his intent regarding sound, so inasmuch as it's possible to entirely miss the point about the violin, I think he has managed to do that to perfection.

I have a feeling that Mr Z thinks that the greatness of his scheme is self-evident, which it certainly not, and since it appears to want to do absolutely nothing to enlighten us and seems immune to polite discussion it would be nice, but impossible for this crowd to do, to not feed the troll.

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6 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Some things I'd like to know:

Is this just a theoretical model, or have violins been made from it?

Have any violins made using this method been sold to professional orchestral players?

The whole thing is a mechanic model and like all mechanic models aiming at using machines to manufacture it. 

I think he showed somewhere a top in the middle of a CNC process. 

There again I see a problem because it ignores completely material properties. It is like working with plastic or steel. (Making this comment to Robert Zuger created an avalanche of e mails which sounded to me like a religious preacher who thinks he needs to safe me from the devil in not believing his creed)

Nevertheless, some time ago I put some serious effort into trying to figure out at the bench what it is all about.  I can only say that using a straight ruler as a quick check guide for the arching is a simple effective device to make a nice and slim looking arching. But in this process I don't look for certain positions of straight lines. It can also be used for quick checking the arching symmetry. But definitely not more. Did my violins improve dramatically in sound quality and projection etc. etc.? The blant answer is no. 

So if anything, maybe Cremonese makers had similar practical thoughts, but certainly not more. 

You need to ask people in Sweden if his violins are in the hands of professional musicians. I think there are a few MN participants from Sweden.

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2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I don't doubt that you have invested considerable time. But that does not automatically equate to value.

Let's say two people show up for an orchestra position audition: One has practiced eight hours per day, and the playing kinda sucks.  The other, who has practiced only two hours per day plays much better. Which do you suppose will get the job?

You are claiming that you haven't been offered any feedback worth considering? I asked this in another thread, with no response from you:

"While there can be tiny parts of a top or back which may loosely resemble (pyramids or) octahedrons, (with the assistance of some highly-creative imagination), the majority of a violin does not. Why have you chosen to put emphasis on such a tiny part of the whole of a violin? "

I am sure that Max Möckel spent a dammed whole lifetime in writing his book about the golden section in Cremonese violins. Anybody here knows about this book? (Which of course (!!!) Claimed to have found the secret.) 

 

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3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Nagyvary has had a succession of theories over time, from varnishes made from dissolved shrimp shells. to varnishes incorporating jewels, to the advantages of short fingerboards.

I spent some time with him recently, and he's really a pretty interesting and fascinating guy, although I did not find the examples of fiddles he had there with shorter or lighter fingerboards to offer anything special. And he really liked a fiddle of mine which happened to have a super-heavy fingerboard, which was a little longer than usual.

Probably depends on the particular fiddle something is used on though,  like just about everything from strings, to chinrests, to bows. To draw any sort of meaningful general conclusions, a huge sample size will be needed.

Well, what bothers me most about Nagyvary is that he claimed on a scientific basis some 'revolutionary' findings just to overthrow them later with another theory (I.e, varnish composition) 

And now at the end it is not varnish at all but only wood treatment. (Though he had found 'irrefutable evidence' for some varnish stuff before.)

In any case, there was an acoustic test made in Taiwan (I think with the help of the chi mei museum) to evaluate the sound of violins. There all sorts of instruments from Strads to modern Italian and actually one Nagyvary violin. The Nagyvary did not land in the group of Strads and similar to Strad. In this group was however a Poggi.

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2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I don't doubt that you have invested considerable time. But that does not automatically equate to value.

During my aerospace years, occasionally we'd get unsolicited "breakthroughs" on various technical subjects.  One of the most outstanding was a "unified field theory" complete with very nicely drawn illustrations, from a guy whose day job was a gas station attendant.  He reportedly sat in his room and though about this for a very long time, and came up with his theory.  We also had perpetual motion machines submitted occasionally.

57 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

Mr Z chastised us for not absorbing his site, so I went and did so. Here's my report: ...

I applaud your detailed critique.  Nicely done.  Dang, you must not have much on your bench to work on :)

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I think the double-string-length lines in Robert Zuger's work are a fundamental aspect of violin geometry as it was originally conceived.

I've shown in my posts on making arching templates how DSL lines can be used to construct an inclined arc which can be used to locate the inflection point of any cross-arch figure from the widest position at the upper bout to the widest position at the lower bout.

Once the horizontal and vertical locations of those inflection points are located it is a simple matter to draw or make arching templates which are coordinated along that arc using that data.

 

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I could demonstrate a couple of more organic ways to determine inflection point, but that's not my point. My point is that unless we talk to the people who made the design, when multiple explanations are possible, it takes more than possibility to prove association with the original design. I'm inclined to think that a proper solution will be all encompassing; that is, it will explain and connect lot of related features, not just one obscure one.

Don--I always have time to geek out on obscure violin things!

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5 minutes ago, Dennis J said:

I think that what I have put forward about arching is more logical and important than some other aspects of violin design such as inner form ratios and corner positions.

 

Just curious, Is there anything here on MN or on the Internet about your arching approach?

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