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Anyone feeling very spendy?


Wood Butcher
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On 6/18/2020 at 8:45 AM, Michael H said:

Kenneth is a great guy, I support his work. Expensive? Yes, of course. Don’t want to be “spendy?” Don’t buy one. 

Are they worth it? Do they give  $900 worth of improvement? I’m not being contentious, but I am a bit skeptical

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2 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Are they worth it? Do they give  $900 worth of improvement? I’m not being contentious, but I am a bit skeptical

It’s whatever a player wants to spend their money on. It’s not uncommon to spend $350+ every 3-4 months for a string combo that feels good (cellist). It is not uncommon to spend extra on a gold mounted bow when the silver mounted counterpart has a better weight and balance point. It is not uncommon to have an expert luthier insert missing and matching purfling on previously repaired edge, when it does not enhance playability nor sound, assuming the instrument is not for resale, it gives a sense of completeness and overall satisfaction. It is not uncommon to spend hundreds on a special Krentz wolftone eliminator that almost eliminates a wolf, but not quite, while an almost as effective New Harmony (properly weighted) can be had for $10. It’s an expensive profession and hobby. Bois Harmonie, Krentz, Bogaro & Clemente, Despiau, Aubert, Otto-Infeld; just a few names that come to mind when discussing brands of accessories. Therefore, it shouldn’t be considered unreasonable, nor uncommon, to spend a lot on a handmade tailpiece that gives a player a bought satisfaction. At times, an accessory can make us feel like it improves the tone, response, projection, etc.. But does it really matter if it actually does if we believe it as a player? Often times I consult my wife after I setup a cello. “How does this sound?” After half a dozen sound posts, I ask. “What am I supposed to be listing for?” She replies, every time. To whom are we playing for aside from ourselves, really?  

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1 hour ago, Michael H said:

It’s whatever a player wants to spend their money on. It’s not uncommon to spend $350+ every 3-4 months for a string combo that feels good (cellist). It is not uncommon to spend extra on a gold mounted bow when the silver mounted counterpart has a better weight and balance point. It is not uncommon to have an expert luthier insert missing and matching purfling on previously repaired edge, when it does not enhance playability nor sound, assuming the instrument is not for resale, it gives a sense of completeness and overall satisfaction. It is not uncommon to spend hundreds on a special Krentz wolftone eliminator that almost eliminates a wolf, but not quite, while an almost as effective New Harmony (properly weighted) can be had for $10. It’s an expensive profession and hobby. Bois Harmonie, Krentz, Bogaro & Clemente, Despiau, Aubert, Otto-Infeld; just a few names that come to mind when discussing brands of accessories. Therefore, it shouldn’t be considered unreasonable, nor uncommon, to spend a lot on a handmade tailpiece that gives a player a bought satisfaction. At times, an accessory can make us feel like it improves the tone, response, projection, etc.. But does it really matter if it actually does if we believe it as a player? Often times I consult my wife after I setup a cello. “How does this sound?” After half a dozen sound posts, I ask. “What am I supposed to be listing for?” She replies, every time. To whom are we playing for aside from ourselves, really?  

Are you serious? It is incredibly uncommon to pay up to $1200 for a carbon Tailpiece. There are other companies that produce quality carbon Tailpieces for less than a fifth of Ken’s price. Here is an example: https://www.concarbo.com 

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Michael H, I get that you know the guy and like him, but you are overflowing with koolaid. The auction scroll is to discuss items at auction, which this tailpiece is. I get the feeling you want to stop people from commenting?
I agree that there are other expensive accessories out there, and people can buy whatever they wish, even if there is no gain and it is just for bragging rights, or bling factor.

Like Phillip KT & Cellopera, I think it has to be one of the most expensive tailpieces out there, and would wonder what differences could be gained. Changing any tailpiece will have an effect on the instrument for better or worse, but it becomes very subjective for the player. Usually there are polarizing opinions.
Certainly it is not a unique concept, carbon tailpieces are available from many manufacturers now, at varying prices. I think Dictum were selling a version for well under 100 Euros.

Looks like the person who bought it didn't stick with it, so I think we have their answer in this case. For another cellist, or a problem instrument, perhaps it is the answer. I'm too old to believe in magic beans however.
 

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51 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Michael H, I get that you know the guy and like him, but you are overflowing with koolaid. The auction scroll is to discuss items at auction, which this tailpiece is. I get the feeling you want to stop people from commenting?
I agree that there are other expensive accessories out there, and people can buy whatever they wish, even if there is no gain and it is just for bragging rights, or bling factor.

Like Phillip KT & Cellopera, I think it has to be one of the most expensive tailpieces out there, and would wonder what differences could be gained. Changing any tailpiece will have an effect on the instrument for better or worse, but it becomes very subjective for the player. Usually there are polarizing opinions.
Certainly it is not a unique concept, carbon tailpieces are available from many manufacturers now, at varying prices. I think Dictum were selling a version for well under 100 Euros.

Looks like the person who bought it didn't stick with it, so I think we have their answer in this case. For another cellist, or a problem instrument, perhaps it is the answer. I'm too old to believe in magic beans however.
 

Truth be told, I’m almost positive he is not a member here and would not have a chance to defend himself. So I’m playing defender a bit. I have seen the reviews of those with nicer celli say they make a difference, and I personally like the way they look; however, the price is a bit too much for me to have experimented with. I was trying to shut down the convo, but obviously did not work. I wish they had a free trial and that they were at least half the price so that I could justify trying one on one of mine. :/ I really do like the sleek modern look on an older cello. For now I’ll stick with Akusticus. 
 

P.S. Mmmmmm... Kool-Aid

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5 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Michael H, I get that you know the guy and like him, but you are overflowing with koolaid. The auction scroll is to discuss items at auction, which this tailpiece is. I get the feeling you want to stop people from commenting?
I agree that there are other expensive accessories out there, and people can buy whatever they wish, even if there is no gain and it is just for bragging rights, or bling factor.

Like Phillip KT & Cellopera, I think it has to be one of the most expensive tailpieces out there, and would wonder what differences could be gained. Changing any tailpiece will have an effect on the instrument for better or worse, but it becomes very subjective for the player. Usually there are polarizing opinions.
Certainly it is not a unique concept, carbon tailpieces are available from many manufacturers now, at varying prices. I think Dictum were selling a version for well under 100 Euros.

Looks like the person who bought it didn't stick with it, so I think we have their answer in this case. For another cellist, or a problem instrument, perhaps it is the answer. I'm too old to believe in magic beans however.
 

Have you had a chance to try one by Dictum?

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8 hours ago, Michael H said:

It’s whatever a player wants to spend their money on. It’s not uncommon to spend $350+ every 3-4 months for a string combo that feels good (cellist). It is not uncommon to spend extra on a gold mounted bow when the silver mounted counterpart has a better weight and balance point. It is not uncommon to have an expert luthier insert missing and matching purfling on previously repaired edge, when it does not enhance playability nor sound, assuming the instrument is not for resale, it gives a sense of completeness and overall satisfaction. It is not uncommon to spend hundreds on a special Krentz wolftone eliminator that almost eliminates a wolf, but not quite, while an almost as effective New Harmony (properly weighted) can be had for $10. It’s an expensive profession and hobby. Bois Harmonie, Krentz, Bogaro & Clemente, Despiau, Aubert, Otto-Infeld; just a few names that come to mind when discussing brands of accessories. Therefore, it shouldn’t be considered unreasonable, nor uncommon, to spend a lot on a handmade tailpiece that gives a player a bought satisfaction. At times, an accessory can make us feel like it improves the tone, response, projection, etc.. But does it really matter if it actually does if we believe it as a player? Often times I consult my wife after I setup a cello. “How does this sound?” After half a dozen sound posts, I ask. “What am I supposed to be listing for?” She replies, every time. To whom are we playing for aside from ourselves, really?  

 That’s all true, but beside the point. Your comment merely says that we buy stuff because we want it and we want it for lots of different reasons. I was asking if this particular tailpiece  improve the sound enough to be worth $900. Maybe it does, but I am skeptical. It’s smacks of gimmickry to me.

FWIW, I was gifted a Krenz, I tried it on my cello, and it did not help a bit. The nickel mounted on my Strings works as well. I gave it to a dear student for her very nice Kiernoziak, and it worked much better on her instrument than it did on mine, but it did not solve the problem. Oh well.

 

edit:  I have noticed, when discussing instruments, that traditionalism seems quite strong. I’m not unwilling to try new things, but I’m content with what I have.

I did once put a Bois Harmony on my cello, replacing my original cocobola tailpiece, and it sounded so horrible I immediately put the original back on. Except for experimenting with strings, that’s the last time i tried to modify my cello.

Edited by PhilipKT
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1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

 That’s all true, but beside the point. Your comment merely says that we buy stuff because we want it and we want it for lots of different reasons. I was asking if this particular tailpiece  improve the sound enough to be worth $900. Maybe it does, but I am skeptical. It’s smacks of gimmickry to me.

FWIW, I was gifted a Krenz, I tried it on my cello, and it did not help a bit. The nickel mounted on my Strings works as well. I gave it to a dear student for her very nice Kiernoziak, and it worked much better on her instrument than it did on mine, but it did not solve the problem. Oh well.

 

edit:  I have noticed, when discussing instruments, that traditionalism seems quite strong. I’m not unwilling to try new things, but I’m content with what I have.

I did once put a Bois Harmony on my cello, replacing my original cocobola tailpiece, and it sounded so horrible I immediately put the original back on. Except for experimenting with strings, that’s the last time i tried to modify my cello.

Your comments reviewing certain brands mentioned are exactly what I had intended, while [unnecessarily] defending Kenneth. It was an inquiry, not an attack, I realized only after. I very much agree that cheaper counterparts can perform equally, if not better, than the fancier ones. I suppose my main point was that people spend money to feel better about their instruments, sometimes regardless of the results. I do wish I had some better insight as to the results of Kenneth’s product aside from the read reviews. Although I have seen a few videos of the making, I do not know how long they take to make. This might be a determining factor, although I don’t think they can justify the price tag. Even if I assume a master maker spends 300 hours making a cello and charges $30k, that is less than $100 an hour (when accounting for price of material) for a well-known masterpiece. I would hope it would take less time for a maker, as they should deserve more per hour. But even assuming that $100 may define master work, I can’t imagine a tailpiece taking 8-10 hours. I definitely could be wrong, though.

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9 hours ago, Michael H said:

Have you had a chance to try one by Dictum?

I've had some of these before, they were similar style to a Wittner, but with titanium claw adjusters. Teenagers/students seemed to get excited by them, but only because it was carbon and thought it looked cool.
As a tailpiece it was fine and well finished, only gripe was when the adjuster was wound down a long way, the ball end became close to the screw, and consequently got in the way slightly.

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