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Staining revisited

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On 6/6/2020 at 11:50 AM, Michael Szyper said:

Yes, i tested also the Zweihorn brand as well as the Clou positive stain. Both behave in a very similar way. I can only repeat that they behave completely different than the usual commercial wood stains, which may cause an inversion.

Peter says that he was told it is non toxic. We don’t know. The best protection mask would be a combined FFP- and ABEC filter. 

Regarding the reaction time: Despite the instructions, which claim that the drying/reaction time takes about 12 hours, my observation is that the most happens in the first 30 mins. After that it barely changes. And yes, immediately after the application it looks like a wood stained by the usual method. 

I think the pronouncement of the winter grain is quite nice. There are a few downsides: The stained wood does not look completely like old wood since it has still a lot of its fresh shine. Therefore i like to combine it with a horse manure treatment. 

By the way, i have the not confirmed suspicion that the second part of old woods “Italian golden ground” is such a positive stain.

Still waiting for pictures!!!

 

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Well, yes/no/maybe. Spruce, if we're talking "reeded" quartersawn "corduroy" I feel has two aspects of "enhancement" one being the color saturation/grain celebration/contrast to spring growth, the other being the texture/topography/grain mottle. So to me the "corduroy" enhancement happens on two levels, the surface prep and what that leaves behind as far as topography and then the grounds and other enhancers

that being said, in my own personal life and work, this is not a "quest" that I have been after, again as I think we know, my work is quite out side the realm of the normal and so I don't really have the same goals as most of you guys, I do like to think I have quite a bit of knowledge about finish work, so I share what i can,but as of now I don't have any revolutionary information about any formulas outside of what I've talked of in the past.

Related to your tanin, I do think it in conjunction with pre-seal uv exposure is a great way to enhance material, I like to make batches of what I call "grey wash" which has a similar effect to Joe's gray/green #1.

Tea's are very tanin rich and a simple way to introduce it to the material. Grey wash is a slightly more intense variety that introduces  (FeSO) {iron salts} into the mix via degradation. Now for unsealed paper this will be lethal in about 600 years , however with sealed wood,beyond the initial water swell {which will raise and delineate the reeding} It adds maybe some lignin  degradation, but our wood is sealed, unlike the pages of old books, so without oxygen, the degradation is basically stopped as oxygen is a needed component for degradation to occur. What little degradation effect that may be left may have a positive effect as there is a difference in paper thin parchment being effected by an iron gall reaction and a 3mm piece of wood.

The gray wash is made by simply obtaining some "oak apples" or "oak galls" , break that apart and throw it in water with a piece of steel wool, let it sit for about a week or two and it's done. Simply brush on one coat and then pat it dry,allow to air dry as if any other water seal, and when it is dry it will impart a gray cast, if you repeat this procedure about 15 to 20 times, you will turn your violin jet black, which is pretty awesome way to get black, BLACK wood, of course knowing that does not apply in normal violin land, but just one coat will give you a nice "aged" looking base color that mixes well with the color of build varnish coats. 

If you apply 2 coats, let that dry, and then do a strong tea on that you can achieve quite a dark "stained" look. prior to any varnish build. I know there is lots of debate over putting color directly onto the wood or not, I don't recommend this one way or another, just saying it can be done. Uv before and after enhances the effect, but blotch can start to get introduced, but most must understand that things even out when coats build, particularly if using something like Joe Robson's Amber varnish

Depends on what you want I suppose, all I know is Alder has a neat sounding product, I have no need for it,but I'm sure many people do, so if it actually works as advertised, I think it's a great idea, and if this fellow who uses it on his violins gets benefit from it, that's great too.

 

 

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The secret to chemical stains is control. Lacking control, the process will destroy cellulose. Most importantly, the reaction must come to completion and not lurk, as it were, to destroy the wood decades later. Some chemical stains are impossible to control because they leave nasty residues. I’ll have more to explain some time later.
 

 

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1 hour ago, catnip said:

From his video series

vlcsnap-2020-06-08-09h51m04s992.thumb.png.359554ab38f97fae5cc4f5233d5d4ae2.png

vlcsnap-2020-06-08-09h51m10s480.thumb.png.deb8b3e8146f2e10a45e065b9223de20.png

That looks exactly like my gray wash, about 2 or 3 coats

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12 hours ago, jezzupe said:

Well, yes/no/maybe. Spruce, if we're talking "reeded" quartersawn "corduroy" I feel has two aspects of "enhancement" one being the color saturation/grain celebration/contrast to spring growth, the other being the texture/topography/grain mottle. So to me the "corduroy" enhancement happens on two levels, the surface prep and what that leaves behind as far as topography and then the grounds and other enhancers

that being said, in my own personal life and work, this is not a "quest" that I have been after, again as I think we know, my work is quite out side the realm of the normal and so I don't really have the same goals as most of you guys, I do like to think I have quite a bit of knowledge about finish work, so I share what i can,but as of now I don't have any revolutionary information about any formulas outside of what I've talked of in the past.

Related to your tanin, I do think it in conjunction with pre-seal uv exposure is a great way to enhance material, I like to make batches of what I call "grey wash" which has a similar effect to Joe's gray/green #1.

Tea's are very tanin rich and a simple way to introduce it to the material. Grey wash is a slightly more intense variety that introduces  (FeSO) {iron salts} into the mix via degradation. Now for unsealed paper this will be lethal in about 600 years , however with sealed wood,beyond the initial water swell {which will raise and delineate the reeding} It adds maybe some lignin  degradation, but our wood is sealed, unlike the pages of old books, so without oxygen, the degradation is basically stopped as oxygen is a needed component for degradation to occur. What little degradation effect that may be left may have a positive effect as there is a difference in paper thin parchment being effected by an iron gall reaction and a 3mm piece of wood.

The gray wash is made by simply obtaining some "oak apples" or "oak galls" , break that apart and throw it in water with a piece of steel wool, let it sit for about a week or two and it's done. Simply brush on one coat and then pat it dry,allow to air dry as if any other water seal, and when it is dry it will impart a gray cast, if you repeat this procedure about 15 to 20 times, you will turn your violin jet black, which is pretty awesome way to get black, BLACK wood, of course knowing that does not apply in normal violin land, but just one coat will give you a nice "aged" looking base color that mixes well with the color of build varnish coats. 

If you apply 2 coats, let that dry, and then do a strong tea on that you can achieve quite a dark "stained" look. prior to any varnish build. I know there is lots of debate over putting color directly onto the wood or not, I don't recommend this one way or another, just saying it can be done. Uv before and after enhances the effect, but blotch can start to get introduced, but most must understand that things even out when coats build, particularly if using something like Joe Robson's Amber varnish

Depends on what you want I suppose, all I know is Alder has a neat sounding product, I have no need for it,but I'm sure many people do, so if it actually works as advertised, I think it's a great idea, and if this fellow who uses it on his violins gets benefit from it, that's great too.

 

 

Very good understanding of the chemistry, Jezzupe. You are describing the gallnut ink system with its potential problems. The iron is the culprit when it undergoes auto-catalyzation. Oxygen supplies energy to change ferrous (iron II) into ferric (iron III) that attacks cellulose and reverts back to ferrous. The cylcle repeats destroying more wood as long as oxygen supplies energy.  Another issue is that it can set up sulphates as sulfuric acid, another source of degradation. These can be controlled as you describe.

 

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2 hours ago, catnip said:

From his video series

vlcsnap-2020-06-08-09h51m04s992.thumb.png.359554ab38f97fae5cc4f5233d5d4ae2.png

vlcsnap-2020-06-08-09h51m10s480.thumb.png.deb8b3e8146f2e10a45e065b9223de20.png

Sorry, I'm just not seeing any "breathtaking" result here. Here are a couple of pictures that I just took of an old Mk instrument that's on my bench. (bassbar is off for replacement). Let's see how they compare. Of course, I'm just one person, but I was expecting something more striking from the OP.

MKtop1.jpg

Mktop2.jpg

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43 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Very good understanding of the chemistry, Jezzupe. You are describing the gallnut ink system with its potential problems. The iron is the culprit when it undergoes auto-catalyzation. Oxygen supplies energy to change ferrous (iron II) into ferric (iron III) that attacks cellulose and reverts back to ferrous. The cylcle repeats destroying more wood as long as oxygen supplies energy.  Another issue is that it can set up sulphates as sulfuric acid, another source of degradation. These can be controlled as you describe.

 

yes well I think of things as potentially dangerous to the wood or potentially dangerous to me, I see no reason to risk my health over this anymore than the "regular" occupational hazards, I see no reason to get into exotic chemicals outside of what I can readily obtain from nature.

as far as the wood goes, I try to avoid stupid things like burning it with chemicals as much as possible, but even left unsealed on 3mm average thickness wood, I don't think iron gall would be burning through and turning a plate to dust anytime soon.

that being said, if your trying to get that gray color like in the picture posted, the simple recipe described gives that exact look.with 1-5 applications depending on the strength of your solution.

If one want to go the full 9 yards they add finely crushed/ground eggshell to thicken the body of the solution, this was helpful for making it usable in ink quills , but for our application in can reduce grain raise slightly by thickening the viscosity and therefore retarding the absorption rate. It does kinda act like a mordant also , so the color of one eggshelled application is generally stronger or darker looking than just the water version.

I do plan on doing a series of tests soon with polypropylene glycol to act as an aid to blending water based solutions with solvents such as acetone and chloroform...Not sure how that's going to work,but the basic principle is that PG is miscible with water as well as solvents like acetone and chloroform, so I want to make some strong natural water base stains, mix that with PG, boil it to vape out the water then to mix that with the other solvents,one of the goals being to see if I can get "water nano'd" sugar into a solvent base.

  

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9 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

Sorry, I'm just not seeing any "breathtaking" result here. Here are a couple of pictures that I just took of an old Mk instrument that's on my bench. (bassbar is off for replacement). Let's see how they compare. Of course, I'm just one person, but I was expecting something more striking from the OP.

MKtop1.jpg

Mktop2.jpg

Yep, there is a difference between a gray colored stain and natural age

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Mike Molnar's "synthetic ash" liquor, as seen in his bench thread, gives an excellent green gray and is very easy to control. His solution may be more complex, but I simply dissolved a tablespoon of potassium carbonate into a liter of water, padded it on to the ribstock with a cloth, and this is what I got, under two different light sources. I haven't tried it on spruce but I imagine pre-wetting would be necessary. 

IMG_20200607_130711.jpg

IMG_20200607_130722.jpg

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Well I whipped up a small batch of gray wash and able to get it "usable" in only a couple hours, but it requires more applications to get the same results with this weaker not soaked as long batch.

here it is being "made" this take about 10 seconds to make

 

CIMG0206.JPG.a1cb90ae3ad456fd2aed2727612ca9e8.JPG

here it is after it has soaked a bit

 

CIMG0223.JPG.12911b5586d8af38eea3522992bfa8cb.JPG

here it is with inside light

CIMG0216.JPG.6d4f1d526836c7535336c8f9397da7a9.JPG

here it is outside

CIMG0227.JPG.49b02b78a0fa0e9d09c26ca766a0771f.JPG

CIMG0233.JPG.3bfc078a1c63db478a48b9d98a95c237.JPG

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38 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Mike Molnar's "synthetic ash" liquor, as seen in his bench thread, gives an excellent green gray and is very easy to control. His solution may be more complex, but I simply dissolved a tablespoon of potassium carbonate into a liter of water, padded it on to the ribstock with a cloth, and this is what I got, under two different light sources. I haven't tried it on spruce but I imagine pre-wetting would be necessary. 

IMG_20200607_130711.jpg

IMG_20200607_130722.jpg

Is that just one application? pretty dark stuff ,probably doesn't taste that good either :lol:

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14 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Is that just one application? pretty dark stuff ,probably doesn't taste that good either :lol:

Potassium Carbonate is used in the preparation of quite a lot of food items across a variety of cultures. Haven't tasted it on its own, but would guess you're right! I'm assuming your gray wash is a pretty rough beverage as well.  Just one application, brushed on pretty heavily. 

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2 hours ago, jezzupe said:

Well I whipped up a small batch of gray wash and able to get it "usable" in only a couple hours, but it requires more applications to get the same results with this weaker not soaked as long batch.

here it is being "made" this take about 10 seconds to make

 

CIMG0206.JPG.a1cb90ae3ad456fd2aed2727612ca9e8.JPG

here it is after it has soaked a bit

 

CIMG0223.JPG.12911b5586d8af38eea3522992bfa8cb.JPG

here it is with inside light

CIMG0216.JPG.6d4f1d526836c7535336c8f9397da7a9.JPG

here it is outside

CIMG0227.JPG.49b02b78a0fa0e9d09c26ca766a0771f.JPG

CIMG0233.JPG.3bfc078a1c63db478a48b9d98a95c237.JPG

J.  What is that?  It looks like an egg in a jar of wet hair.   I think you mentioned hybiscus tea?  That sounds interesting, I may test it out. 

For those of you who like a greenish gray,   just about any alkaline will do that to wood.   I put some baking soda solution on some maple one time and got that ugly green gray.   Didn't do that again.  

 

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36 minutes ago, MikeC said:

J.  What is that?  It looks like an egg in a jar of wet hair.   I think you mentioned hybiscus tea?  That sounds interesting, I may test it out. 

For those of you who like a greenish gray,   just about any alkaline will do that to wood.   I put some baking soda solution on some maple one time and got that ugly green gray.   Didn't do that again.  

 

Mike, an oak apple and steel wool, eye of newt optional...Hibiscus looks just like Joe's rose red straight from the jar and spread/wiped thin...you would not use his stuff like the tea, it's just the same color for awhile, then it turns brownish with a red tinge.fugitive colors are cool when the change predictably under varnish, all I know I was surprised how strong the red was and how long it stayed red, I know if I had coated it the red would have styed even longer, so it's quite strong color It has a real pinkish red to it,so you will rely on the varnish color to mellow it down

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What chemical did you use?  It can't be sodium nitrite since it needs some tannin and spruce has very little.  Nice highlights

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Its called ethanolamine (monoethanolamine). Not suggesting anyone uses it but it seems to have negligable  harmful effects on the wood as far as i have observed. Though it is also used for making wood pulp for papermaking so perhaps not a good idea ,i dont know  .

 

A couple of papers discussing the treatment.

 

Upgrading_of_spruce_wood_with_ethanolamine_treatme.pdf Patination of cherry and spruce wood with ethanolamine.pdf

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15 hours ago, jezzupe said:

Mike, an oak apple and steel wool, eye of newt optional...Hibiscus looks just like Joe's rose red straight from the jar and spread/wiped thin...you would not use his stuff like the tea, it's just the same color for awhile, then it turns brownish with a red tinge.fugitive colors are cool when the change predictably under varnish, all I know I was surprised how strong the red was and how long it stayed red, I know if I had coated it the red would have styed even longer, so it's quite strong color It has a real pinkish red to it,so you will rely on the varnish color to mellow it down

If it's that red I wonder if you could make a lake pigment out of it,  might be fun to try.   

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11 hours ago, catnip said:

What chemical did you use?  It can't be sodium nitrite since it needs some tannin and spruce has very little.  Nice highlights

I haven't found that to be true for sodium nitrite.  Maybe you were thinking of potasium dichromate?

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I found that on bare spruce NaNo2 has almost no effect but if it is treated with a tannin solution first then NaNo2 is applied in conjunction with sunlight I do get a positive effect.  The main reason for bringing up this topic is that I sometime use alternative woods just as walnut, Spanish cedar and cherry for the backs. It is difficult to avoid or minimize grain reversal in spruce.  Also in some of my very tight grain spruce billets the grain lines are almost invisible.

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5 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

Its called ethanolamine (monoethanolamine). Not suggesting anyone uses it but it seems to have negligable  harmful effects on the wood as far as i have observed. Though it is also used for making wood pulp for papermaking so perhaps not a good idea ,i dont know  .

 

A couple of papers discussing the treatment.

 

Upgrading_of_spruce_wood_with_ethanolamine_treatme.pdf 181.56 kB · 13 downloads Patination of cherry and spruce wood with ethanolamine.pdf 180.07 kB · 9 downloads

Interesting reads, thank you. How dilute a solution have you been using? It's rather hazardous stuff, undilute. 

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The potassium carbonate solution, as previously noted, is gray/green on maple. Some find that a turn off; I think that it's actually rather useful for giving depth to the typically sought after "golden" ground. Here's that same sample, treated with dilute larch turpentine followed by a bit of quinacridone gold (no longer in production) under two different bench lamps (both LED, different color temp). It's raining today or I'd post a natural light photo. Short video as well. 

IMG_20200609_092920.jpg

IMG_20200609_092903.jpg

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