Violin identification, please R&M Millant

[moon6868]

I am a violinist with a violin in my hand and the label says millant Is this a genuine product In addition, I also have a bow with OTTO imprinted here to ask if it is genuine.

[Brad Dorsey]

I'm not sure whether this is genuine or not, but a customer of mine plays an R & M Millant that looks similar to this one.

[jacobsaunders]

“Fait dans les ateliers/ et sous la direction” means that someone made it in his workshop under his direction, it doesn’t tell you who

[GeorgeH]

It looks very much like the "Roger & Max Millant Firm" c. 1936 violin pictured in the Tarisio archive.

[Wood Butcher]

34 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

“Fait dans les ateliers/ et sous la direction” means that someone made it in his workshop under his direction, it doesn’t tell you who

Equally they could have been acquired from Mirecourt, and simply added a label.

[Fossil Ledges]

8 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Equally they could have been acquired from Mirecourt, and simply added a label.

Say it isn't so!

[Johnmasters]

The violin looks very nice.   I keep feeling critical of people asking about authenticity.   Are you all trying to get rich?  Why not sell a violin on its own merits.  If yours is a high-grade French violin,  why not just assume that the label is OK?   If it is a false label,  then the violin may still be very good.  Who cares about authenticity concerning a lesser known maker?  They are all made by some person (or people) and the final result seems to me the only thing of interest (unless you think provenance is going to make you rich.)

[PhilipKT]

John, I make More gaffes on this site than anyone, but I can conclusively tell you that, yes, provenance is every bit that important: the worst Strad in the world is still a Strad, And the best Shlabotnik in the world remains nothing but a Shlabotnik.

It is curious, but very true.

[duane88]

The R&M Milliant instruments that I have seen, by them, have the "RMM" inlaid at the end button into the rib, in a diamond shape with purfling, have a number stamped into the end of the fingerboard, on the root of the neck at the body end of the pegbox, and stamped internally near a corner, provided the neck hasn't been grafted and the board replaced as well as graduating the number out of the back...

To me, it looks like a nice French instrument, but lacks the character and flair of a R&M Milliant.

[PhilipKT]

I notice this violin has a grafted neck and bushed peg holes. 

[Wood Butcher]

16 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

I notice this violin has a grafted neck and bushed peg holes. 

Which looks like very recent work, that has been nastily done.

[PhilipKT]

2 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Which looks like very recent work, that has been nastily done.

I was wondering if that was an attempt at “antiquing” and I was also wondering if such a shop as Millant would indulge in such things. Your comment indicates that it’s not original to them, thank you!

[Wood Butcher]

9 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

I was wondering if that was an attempt at “antiquing” and I was also wondering if such a shop as Millant would indulge in such things. Your comment indicates that it’s not original to them, thank you!

Some clues to help you judge the quality of these in the future:

Do a little research on the company, and find what their standing was in the violin world. If they happen to be a very famous name, had a prestigious shop, and were considered a major expert in their day, a certain quality of work should be expected to match this.

Bushings which do not seem to be flush with the sides of the pegbox, have gaps where pieces of the original wood were chipped out when trying to fit them, and no attempt at all to retouch the varnish, are not signs of good work.

I often wonder when bushings aren't retouched at all, or retouched very poorly, this is something consciously done, for the likes of the eBay crowd. Purposely drawing attention to them, which makes the uninitiated think the instrument must have played 10,000,000 symphonies, causing the mouse clickers to drool a big puddle at their feet while dreaming about how good it must sound.
Add in some sort of cheap, but fancy looking pegs, which judging from the state of the bushings, won't fit very well, and the picture is complete.

Neck grafts when done well, and retouched by someone skilled, can be pretty much invisible.
When there is an obvious joint line you could catch a fingernail on, and the varnish looks to have been "retouched" with nail varnish the wife last used 15 years ago, these aren't good signs...

 

[martin swan]

I can't say i'm convinced by this violin. although the model isn't a million miles away from the example in Tarisio, there are a lot of details that are quite different, and the varnish just doesn't look French to me.

There's an outside chance this could be something from the Apparut shop but if you showed it to me without the label I would have gone more for a Bohemian trade instrument - though these also turned up in French shops for labelling.

[PhilipKT]

24 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Some clues to help you judge the quality of these in the future:

Do a little research on the company, and find what their standing was in the violin world. If they happen to be a very famous name, had a prestigious shop, and were considered a major expert in their day, a certain quality of work should be expected to match this.

Bushings which do not seem to be flush with the sides of the pegbox, have gaps where pieces of the original wood were chipped out when trying to fit them, and no attempt at all to retouch the varnish, are not signs of good work.

I often wonder when bushings aren't retouched at all, or retouched very poorly, this is something consciously done, for the likes of the eBay crowd. Purposely drawing attention to them, which makes the uninitiated think the instrument must have played 10,000,000 symphonies, causing the mouse clickers to drool a big puddle at their feet while dreaming about how good it must sound.
Add in some sort of cheap, but fancy looking pegs, which judging from the state of the bushings, won't fit very well, and the picture is complete.

Neck grafts when done well, and retouched by someone skilled, can be pretty much invisible.
When there is an obvious joint line you could catch a fingernail on, and the varnish looks to have been "retouched" with nail varnish the wife last used 15 years ago, these aren't good signs...

 

Thank you very much that’s extremely good advice. I assumed that the Millant shop was well respected. I did not imply that they did this work, That’s why I asked if such a respected shop would indulge in such things. I wasn’t judging the quality of the work, rather questioning whether such a shop would do it in the first place.

[moon6868]

When I bought this violin, the supplier gave me a certificate, as shown in the picture.

Edited June 5, 2020 by moon6868