JohnCockburn Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, Shunyata said: I suspect Tartini Tones are just audible interference tones. For some reason the interference tones are damped on some violins. Sound ...of.....man...banging...his.....head....against....brick .......wall........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, JohnCockburn said: Sound ...of.....man...banging...his.....head....against....brick .......wall........... Are you modulating the amplitude? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, GeorgeH said: Are you modulating the amplitude? LOL of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shunyata Posted June 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 No need to bang your head, modulated or otherwise. Pigment + canvas produces the impression of Mona Lisa even though there is no Mona Lisa there. C + E produces the impression A lower G even though there is no G there. Voila, Tartini tones! (...by the way, this is an example of what Buddhists mean by shunyata.) An interesting suggestion by an earlier commenter was that the physical construction of my violin may have pushed C and E too far out of phase to get a strong amplitude on the mirage G. I left the G side rather heavy when graduating. And I do get moderate Tartini tones on thirds not involving the G string... There might be something there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 9 minutes ago, Shunyata said: No need to bang your head, modulated or otherwise. Pigment + canvas produces the impression of Mona Lisa even though there is no Mona Lisa there. C + E produces the impression A lower G even though there is no G there. Voila, Tartini tones! (...by the way, this is an example of what Buddhists mean by shunyata.) An interesting suggestion by an earlier commenter was that the physical construction of my violin may have pushed C and E too far out of phase to get a strong amplitude on the mirage G. I left the G side rather heavy when graduating. And I do get moderate Tartini tones on thirds not involving the G string... There might be something there. Always fancied having a go at Buddhism. Might help make me a bit less lairy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 4 hours ago, JohnCockburn said: Doesn't matter. Apart from "displacement from equilibrium" which in general, isn't the definition of amplitude. Amplitude is the maximum displacement from equilibrium. So constant amplitude, ie with no modulation or fluctuation of the amplitude, for a sound wave, for example, means that the sound has constant intensity, or perceived loudness, if you will. Changing the amplitude changes the loudness. "Amplitude without modulation produces no sensation of sound, only something ranging between a weird feeling, and pain" No. Wrong. Here's one example of a "waveform" without amplitude. It looks like this: ________________________________________________________________ No sound. Not only one of us can cherry-pick our definitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, David Burgess said: Here's one example of a "waveform" without amplitude. It looks like this: ________________________________________________________________ No sound. Not only one of us can cherry-pick our definitions. David. This is just foolish. No-one was talking about a waveform without amplitude. But a waveform of constant amplitude. This really is weapons grade nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Stross Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, David Burgess said: Here's one example of a "waveform" without amplitude. It looks like this: ________________________________________________________________ No sound. Not only one of us can cherry-pick our definitions. I think you won this one. Congrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, Carl Stross said: I think you won this one. Congrats. Right. We really are in the "post truth" world now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shunyata Posted June 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 On my screen it has a constant amplitude of 5, not zero. Still isn't audible though. Amplitude without frequency doesn't mean anything. Kind of like the Mona Lisa painted in just one color... an interesting thought experiment but no one would agree Mona Lisa was involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Shunyata said: On my screen it has a constant amplitude of 5, not zero. Still isn't audible though. Amplitude without frequency doesn't mean anything. Kind of like the Mona Lisa painted in just one color... an interesting thought experiment but no one would agree Mona Lisa was involved. No, a flat line has "zero amplitude". Doesn't matter where on the screen it is. That's just a DC-offset. Of course, amplitude without frequency is meaningless, because nothing is oscillating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 27 minutes ago, JohnCockburn said: Right. For an idiot. Hugs and kisses (adhering to appropriate social distancing, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 15 hours ago, David Burgess said: Hugs and kisses (adhering to appropriate social distancing, of course). I edited that comment so as not to appear rude. But I see you managed to grab it. I have enormous respect for you as a violin maker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, JohnCockburn said: No, a flat line has "zero amplitude". Doesn't matter where on the screen it is. But it does. Zero in reference to what? Atmospheric pressure at sea level? Atmospheric pressure in Denver? At the top of Mount Everest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, David Burgess said: But it does. Zero in reference to what? Atmospheric pressure at sea level? Atmospheric pressure in Denver? Honestly, David. Go away and read a high school physics text book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, JohnCockburn said: Honestly, David. Go away and read a high school physics text book. Hugs and kisses once again. Fiddle acoustics research has gone far beyond the high-school physics level, and I've been fortunate enough to have had some exposure to the cutting-edge stuff. I still luv ya, whether you like it or not. You have a history of having posted some really good stuff on Maestronet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, David Burgess said: Hugs and kisses once again. Stay safe, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Stross Posted June 2, 2020 Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 50 minutes ago, JohnCockburn said: Right. We really are in the "post truth" world now. Just my opinion, nothing more. You have your opinion, I have my opinion. Not my intention to be argumentative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shunyata Posted June 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 I am a control systems engineer and know a few things about signal processing. ;-) (Seriously, although at least one of my old professors would smirk to hear me say it.) That flat line definitely had an amplitude of 5, which is definitely a thing. Like Mr. Burgess, I actually had atmospheric pressure in mind when I first wrote it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shunyata Posted June 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2020 ...and I am a novice violin maker who is indebted to the kind comments of all Maestronetters while on my learning journey. Being a grateful student is good for the heart and mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Beard Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 5 hours ago, David Burgess said: But it does. Zero in reference to what? Atmospheric pressure at sea level? Atmospheric pressure in Denver? At the top of Mount Everest? Cockburn: Right, amplitude is width in relation to the waves mean. A flat line, if considered as a wave, has amplitude zero and frequency undefined, so problematic. These issue are intrinsic to the line and don't need a context. Right: Difference tones (Tartini tones) don't appear in a correct fourier transform. On the other hand, they do appear as periodic cycling of pressure. Depending on your definition of 'sound' that either does or doesn't make them sound, and real. Yet, under the right circumstances, they are audible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 14 hours ago, David Burgess said: Hugs and kisses once again. Fiddle acoustics research has gone far beyond the high-school physics level, and I've been fortunate enough to have had some exposure to the cutting-edge stuff. I still luv ya, whether you like it or not. You have a history of having posted some really good stuff on Maestronet. David. I owe you a humble apology. Looking back over the way this thread developed, I can see that at one point i got hold of the wrong end of the stick about what you were saying, and ended up talking nonsense. What you were saying was right. I was wrong. And I also realise that there is a way that Tartini tones arising from beats could appear in a Fourier transform. If the difference frequency periodicity excites another resonance, such as an open string. That would do it, I think. Cheers john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicM Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, JohnCockburn said: David. I owe you a humble apology. Looking back over the way this thread developed, I can see that at one point i got hold of the wrong end of the stick about what you were saying, and ended up talking nonsense. What you were saying was right. I was wrong. And I also realise that there is a way that Tartini tones arising from beats could appear in a Fourier transform. If the difference frequency periodicity excites another resonance, such as an open string. That would do it, I think. Cheers john What then was this : "Right. For an idiot. " ? Not decent calling David Burgess an idiot and then apologized like nothing happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wood Butcher Posted June 3, 2020 Report Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 minute ago, VicM said: Not decent calling David Burgess an idiot and then apologized like nothing happened. At least there is an apology. What do you expect? Should he buy a spa break too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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