Another violin identification (Markneukirchen?) please

[Nick Allen]

1 hour ago, Three13 said:

Gibson seems to have had the nicest sunbursts - that's 1933/34 L-5.

Indeed. Except for the 70's Clownburst Les Pauls. 

[Three13]

2 minutes ago, Nick Allen said:

Indeed. Except for the 70's Clownburst Les Pauls. 

Those just can't be unseen.

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, Three13 said:

Gibson seems to have had the nicest sunbursts - that's 1933/34 L-5.

Ours is an L-3.  Basically unplayed for 103 years. Unfortunately, it’s not as desirable as an L-5, and it was made before the reinforced neck was invented, so its awkward to play. Oh well...

[Three13]

25 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Ours is an L-3.  Basically unplayed for 103 years. Unfortunately, it’s not as desirable as an L-5, and it was made before the reinforced neck was invented, so its awkward to play. Oh well...

You should get yourself a Gibson mandocello from that era - I'll bet you'd get some use out of it.

[PhilipKT]

2 minutes ago, Three13 said:

You should get yourself a Gibson mandocello from that era - I'll bet you'd get some use out of it.

I saw several of those at Skinners when I used to attend those auctions in person, they require skills that I don’t have. I have often thought about playing the Gamba, Although I’m most likely to find some extra money for a nice five string cello someday. The most beautiful performance of the Bach Sixth suite was performed on, I was quite astonished to learn, a 3/4 Jay Haide that had been converted to five strings. It looked and sounded glorious. And it probably cost next to nothing.

 

[RyanJ]

 

17 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Cheap and nasty Dutzendarbeit from the Markneukirchen/Schönbach area, pre-WWI

Is the term "dutzendarbeit" used specifically as a term for violins or does it also relate to other mass produced/cottage industry items?

[Fossil Ledges]

Loads of wild sunbursts in the 1970's...

[StanY]

7 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

The most beautiful performance of the Bach Sixth suite was performed on, I was quite astonished to learn, a 3/4 Jay Haide that had been converted to five strings. It looked and sounded glorious. And it probably cost next to nothing.

Wow.  Super nice recycling job.  Next to nothing compared with a new five-string but I expect the custom fingerboard work and tailpiece cost as much as the cello they started with.

[FiddleDoug]

8 hours ago, JRyn said:

 

Is the term "dutzendarbeit" used specifically as a term for violins or does it also relate to other mass produced/cottage industry?

The way this cottage industry worked, the "makers" would only make parts, that would only take minimal tools or training. One gut might make necks, another might make fronts and/or backs, one gut might make ribs.

I have tried to see if any other instruments in that area were made like that, but couldn't find anything. Most other instruments would require some machines to do the work. If anyone knows anything else, please post.

[brokenbow]

For these inexpensive violins with grainy finishes (and NOT fine violins, or even semi-fine violins) this is an okay method for reducing the visibility of lots of scratches:  

 

[Brad Dorsey]

16 hours ago, Rachell66 said:

...I want to know what is cheap...

Look at the color variations of the varnish on the back of your violin.  This the original varnish, applied to make some areas lighter and other areas darker, as you see it now.  This is a type of antiquing that was done to imitate the wear that is often seen on old instruments, because over many years of playing the varnish on an old violin will have worn off unevenly, leaving some areas lighter and some darker.  The variation in varnish coloring superficially gives your violin the look of an old one that has seen much use.

But people familiar with the look of genuinely old violins can tell at a glance that the color shadings on your violin were hastily applied and look nothing like the genuinely worn varnish on an old violin.  The light and dark areas are too symmetrical.  Although certain areas on violins always get worn more than others, the wear on an old violin would be more random than what you see on yours.  The light areas are too uniformly light, and the dark areas are too uniformly dark.  The surface reflectivity is uniform over the entire back, which suggests that the color variation was intentionally applied under the top varnish coats, rather than the result of wear.

It is possible to antique violin varnish to create a realistic simulation of the look of an old instrument, but it takes a lot of time and a lot of skill, which makes it expensive to do.  All of the things that I have mentioned about the varnish on the back of your violin are characteristic of cheaply mass-produced instruments.

[PhilipKT]

3 hours ago, StanY said:

Wow.  Super nice recycling job.  Next to nothing compared with a new five-string but I expect the custom fingerboard work and tailpiece cost as much as the cello they started with.

Yes that is probably true, but it is a real credit to Jay Haide instruments that out of all her options, she chose one of those instruments, and a three-quarter size to boot.

[FiddleDoug]

2 hours ago, brokenbow said:

For these inexpensive violins with grainy finishes (and NOT fine violins, or even semi-fine violins) this is an okay method for reducing the visibility of lots of scratches:  

 

I watched the video, and that big scratch at the bottom, went from being a big deep scratch, to being a colored big deep scratch. Not up to my standards. They are also dealing with lacquer, not violin varnish.

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, FiddleDoug said:

I watched the video, and that big scratch at the bottom, went from being a big deep scratch, to being a colored big deep scratch. Not up to my standards. They are also dealing with lacquer, not violin varnish.

I very much agree with FiddleDoug. These “cheap & nasty”, or in the original catalogue “Ordinare” violins, generally have a Colophon/Spirit varnish over a stain, which is susceptible to ugly scratches. The best (and quickest) method to revive the varnish, is to clean it, then polish it with an oil/spirit rag

[Fossil Ledges]

7 hours ago, StanY said:

Wow.  Super nice recycling job.  Next to nothing compared with a new five-string but I expect the custom fingerboard work and tailpiece cost as much as the cello they started with.

The result of a good careful setup.

[Fossil Ledges]

So, we're headed off in the weeds again...to add some tiny bit of clarification to the original question(s), the German shops, industry, at the time made several million violins. Most shops made a range from "cheap and nasty", with the inherent varnish clues already mentioned, to higher end instruments. The more sets of hands that fabricated your instrument, generally the less expensive it was. Much of the higher end stuff was constructed by a "master luthier(s)" or just a few folks.  Yes it's true they are ubiquitous, however I am always working with the parents of my students to get them out of the entry level Chinese boxes and into a (slightly) better Markie, Mittie, or Mire instrument which can benefit from a decent setup and function well as a student instrument.

[deans]

18 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

 And it probably cost next to nothing.

Not quite  nothing. But will scratch a lot of itches for the money.

[Fossil Ledges]

Yeah good point, and there's always the pride of sorting through and owning your setup!

[Bob K]

The varnish is typical of low end mass produced German fiddles as has already been established.  It seems that many of the contributors on this site usually work with a much higher grade of instrument for orchestral players and professionals.  However, these cheap vintage violins can be good for practising basic repairs and setting up and they can be brought back to life. Some can even turn out to be reasonable instruments for amateur folkies and the like and you can have a go at improving it without wrecking anything valuable. I have successfully used a varnish cleaner/restorer in the form of linseed oil in suspension (I am in the UK and use a Beare & Son preparation) with VERY fine 0000 wire wool on instruments like your example.  You will find that many of the scratches will disappear. I will add a couple of pics to illustrate.

 

[Rachell66]

I am so happy I bought cheap crap now, but I can still flip it for cheap. But on the other hand, I think if I put decent strings on them, fill in the scratches with furniture filler, it might sound decent, better then the stentor or hidersine. I got it for really cheap. The wood is warmer than the stentor. I need to try it. Worst case I sell it and get my money back. These are such easy flips. Good learning experience 

[RyanJ]

.

[RyanJ]

On 5/30/2020 at 5:51 AM, Bob K said:

The varnish is typical of low end mass produced German fiddles as has already been established.  It seems that many of the contributors on this site usually work with a much higher grade of instrument for orchestral players and professionals.  However, these cheap vintage violins can be good for practising basic repairs and setting up and they can be brought back to life. Some can even turn out to be reasonable instruments for amateur folkies and the like and you can have a go at improving it without wrecking anything valuable. I have successfully used a varnish cleaner/restorer in the form of linseed oil in suspension (I am in the UK and use a Beare & Son preparation) with VERY fine 0000 wire wool on instruments like your example.  You will find that many of the scratches will disappear. I will add a couple of pics to illustrate.

 

Would this be a good candidate this quick and dirty fix? How do I get linseed oil in suspension? Is that much different from ordinary Hill polish?