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Shunyata

Shaping the Scroll Eye

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I can do the general shaping is the eye post, but I have a hard time with creating a finished surface, especially cleaning the right angle with the volute sweep.  The steep pitch on the spiral makes it difficult to get gouges in there.

Any technique or tool suggestions?

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This is part of what i am talking about.   The last 90 degrees of turn going into the eye is challenging.

But my primary question is the vertical wall of the eye in that last 90 degrees of turn.

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46 minutes ago, Shunyata said:

This is part of what i am talking about.   The last 90 degrees of turn going into the eye is challenging.

But my primary question is the vertical wall of the eye in that last 90 degrees of turn.

How much time have you spent practicing?

Making a violin is not totally unlike learning to play one. ;)

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I am on build number 8, completing about 3 per year.  I spend a couple hours every day.  My skill level has increased dramatically, and my scrolls turn out very nicely, well shaped, and symmetrical. 

My questions are seeking tips to help create a crisp professional "finish" to the carving.

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59 minutes ago, Shunyata said:

I am on build number 8, completing about 3 per year.  I spend a couple hours every day.  My skill level has increased dramatically, and my scrolls turn out very nicely, well shaped, and symmetrical. 

My questions are seeking tips to help create a crisp professional "finish" to the carving.

Finding gouges thin enough and sharpening them with the right profile is the key. Some experimentation is needed. The main problem is that this profile can change depending on the depth of the excavation, the deeper it is and the more difficult it is. For the vertical wall of the eye a nail-shaped profile is probably better, as to be able to keep the gouge perpendicular to the axis of the eye during cutting.

Another problem is that these things are very personal, everyone could have a different idea and disagree with me:lol:

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I think I  do need to make a set of flat gouges like you use, Davide.  Here is a picture of what i need to clean up.  I haven't done any cleanup at all so far.

20200521_174147_copy_734x1305.jpg

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Something I have found important is to keep the first turn fairly high so that the final turn is not at too steep an ascending angle. It will also allow for a thicker bevel around each turn.

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I can see that I haven't done this.  And Davide clearly DID do this.  And I can see this would solve my problem.

But I do really like the look of the steep final windings.  I will just have to figure out a way!

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Well it looks like a pretty good job to me and I guess it all comes down to the pattern you are following and the range of gouges you have and how they are sharpened, especially on the vertical cuts.

 

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13 hours ago, Shunyata said:

I think I  do need to make a set of flat gouges like you use, Davide.  Here is a picture of what i need to clean up.  I haven't done any cleanup at all so far.

20200521_174147_copy_734x1305.jpg

Nice work indeed. In my opinion, you should make a well-defined incision at the base of the turn, in order to separate the vertical wall from the scooped surface. Keeping this incision throughout the work always helps to separate the two surfaces cleanly, giving a greater impression of the sharpness of the cut and making the flowing of lines more eye-catching.

A critical point of your work seems to me to be (but it is not clear from the photo) the end of the cuts where they converge at the eye, it seems to me that the curves are too flat which is an indication of a not enough curved gouge. To give the right shape to the final part of the eye you need a gouge that has the exact curve you want to do, so that with only one cut you get the exact curve. Otherwise if the curve flattens or loses definition, it stops turning and the line loses its impression of continuity of spiral movement. The curve that defines the comma must mirror that of the eye, this is obtained by using the same gouge also for the end part of the scoop (seems too flat in your work).

I'm not sure I wrote correctly what I mean...:unsure: in any case I was referring to these two curves :

538689577_Curvefinaliocchio.thumb.jpg.6131358c1a04b1c6dd4f757fe15a6291.jpg

See also this video for a better understanding of what I have tried to say about the gouge for the final curve of the eye :

 

 

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I also see that your incision makes a SHARPER angle between the two surfaces at the eye, while my shaping keeps roughly the SAME angle between the surfaces throughout the entire volute spiral.  

While my shaping steepens the angle and the eye a little, there is a limit to what I can easily do because of the steepness of the spiral slope in the last bit of turn going into the eye.  Making the spiral slope more even throughout the volute - as others have suggested -  would help with this.

Thank you all for your kind assistance.  I am self taught and everything I have learned, I have learned here on this forum!

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5 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I'm not sure I wrote correctly what I mean...:unsure: in any case I was referring to these two curves :

538689577_Curvefinaliocchio.thumb.jpg.6131358c1a04b1c6dd4f757fe15a6291.jpg

That's a great photo that explains everything very clearly.

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20 minutes ago, Bill Yacey said:

That's a great photo that explains everything very clearly.

Thanks, surely better than my english...:)

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Davide, we all appreciate your videos and your English is very good.  A lot of people try to explain things with what they think is clear but the reader has to take a long time to figure out what it is... a picture with arrows is universally  easily understood.

I don't understand what you mean by ascending (?) angle but I think it has a lot to do with the width of scroll ... the wider it is the more prominent the ears will be and the ascending (?) angle will be greater

scroll_temp.jpg.47cfa107611bfe44b241312c09b2989a.jpg

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1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

Thanks, surely better than my english...:)

Your English is far better than my Italian.

I don't have any problems understanding what you write; in fact your sentence structure and grammar is far better than some people I have seen here, where English is supposed to be their native language.

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Sora puts up some really good stuff.

Yes, if you want to cut a 20 degree angle, a gouge ground to 30 degrees probably ain't gonna do the job very well. ;)

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I think I mentioned "ascending angle". What I meant was that the last turn at the eye in Shunyata's photo appeared to be very steep. This means that a gouge cutting vertically needs to be ground/sharpened with a curved (fingernail) cutting edge to make good contact so that a slicing cut can be achieved, rotating around the post as it were. With an edge ground flatter only the corner edge of the blade will make contact with the sloping surface making a smooth cut very difficult.

I don't disagree with Catnip's analysis about the width of the scroll, it's obvious. But by ascending I mean the increasing angle at the base of the vertical cut as the volute approaches the eye.

 

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3 hours ago, Dennis J said:

I think I mentioned "ascending angle". What I meant was that the last turn at the eye in Shunyata's photo appeared to be very steep. This means that a gouge cutting vertically needs to be ground/sharpened with a curved (fingernail) cutting edge to make good contact so that a slicing cut can be achieved, rotating around the post as it were. With an edge ground flatter only the corner edge of the blade will make contact with the sloping surface making a smooth cut very difficult.

I don't disagree with Catnip's analysis about the width of the scroll, it's obvious. But by ascending I mean the increasing angle at the base of the vertical cut as the volute approaches the eye.

 

I found out that a fingernail profile is key here. It's also quite easy to foul up the descending angle here. It's quite difficult to analyze the exact geometry and profiles of great historic scrolls just from photos like Strad posters or books, so I've been flying sorta blind when it comes to the last turn. 

Even with instruments in hand, often there's too much crud or congealed varnish in this area to get a good assessment. 

But I find that using just the right tool makes this part much easier. Just gotta find the one that works for your style. 

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Does anyone sell fingernail profile gouges, or am I going to need to grind my own?  If I go that route:

1. Where do people get their stock?

2. How do I avoid killing the tempering in the steel?

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