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Davide Sora

Dances with wolftones

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1 hour ago, Peter K-G said:

There is not enough spectrum data...

While this doesn't prove anything, the Sloan delGesu spectrum that I have shows a very strong B1+ and not much on the B1-.  In fact, it looks like the CBR is stronger, and the B1- is missing entirely. I recall noticing the very strong (near-wolf) B1+ when I played it.  This is one of the earliest spectrums that I measured, and probably not as good as what I do now.

Guarneri1742.thumb.jpg.d952bc23a960a057986d5e80321f506c.jpg

I also happen to have a Cannone spectrum (likely under-represented in the higher frequencies).  Don't ask how I got this.

803097703_Cannonespectrum.jpg.a684aa9d66626b713870efaf13b99624.jpg

Although it does show a B1+ stronger than the B1-, I haven't played it to confirm that.  And from what I hear in the video, the B1- does seem stronger.

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3 hours ago, Eugen Modri said:

I am quite curious as to what the perceived differences may be. We played with Szeryng in 78-9 and I have the live recorded LP. Violin sounds more or less similar. I wonder if they go downhill and in which direction. Or maybe they get better. 

Also, what is your opinion ? I saw on another thread a player I respect a lot wasn't impressed with it.

Really ??? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjSG2SVwDMY

It's ( was )  a violin for which the perspective matters a lot. I saw that comment and I believe  it was accurate. He was just too close to Szeryng. I like much more the recordings he did on the Strad but that's just another can of worms. That'd be the LP you have. :)  

Exactly the same for Ferras : people next to him in the orch were not that impressed. Also, I like him more on the Strad.

 

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2 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

Really ??? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjSG2SVwDMY

It's ( was )  a violin for which the perspective matters a lot. I saw that comment and I believe  it was accurate. He was just too close to Szeryng. I like much more the recordings he did on the Strad but that's just another can of worms. That'd be the LP you have. :)  

Exactly the same for Ferras : people next to him in the orch were not that impressed. Also, I like him more on the Strad.

 

That is a pretty substantial difference. By the way, who's your favorite ? I suppose Grumiaux - Celi's fav. player.

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1 hour ago, Eugen Modri said:

That is a pretty substantial difference. By the way, who's your favorite ? I suppose Grumiaux - Celi's fav. player.

I really don't have a favorite. But when he's not overly dramatic I think Ferras might come close. 

Szeryng was Celi's favorite violin player. He couldn't stand Grumiaux. And ASM. :) :) :) 

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16 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

I really don't have a favorite. But when he's not overly dramatic I think Ferras might come close. 

Szeryng was Celi's favorite violin player. He couldn't stand Grumiaux. And ASM. :) :) :) 

How do you know that ? Did he specifically mention Szeryng ? And what was wrong with Grumiaux ? I am not asking why he did not like ASM - I think I know that one.  He had a notoriously vicious character when it came to his colleagues.

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On 5/19/2020 at 8:08 PM, Don Noon said:

While this doesn't prove anything, the Sloan delGesu spectrum that I have shows a very strong B1+ and not much on the B1-.  In fact, it looks like the CBR is stronger, and the B1- is missing entirely. I recall noticing the very strong (near-wolf) B1+ when I played it.  This is one of the earliest spectrums that I measured, and probably not as good as what I do now.

Guarneri1742.thumb.jpg.d952bc23a960a057986d5e80321f506c.jpg

I also happen to have a Cannone spectrum (likely under-represented in the higher frequencies).  Don't ask how I got this.

803097703_Cannonespectrum.jpg.a684aa9d66626b713870efaf13b99624.jpg

Although it does show a B1+ stronger than the B1-, I haven't played it to confirm that.  And from what I hear in the video, the B1- does seem stronger.

Thanks for the spectra. Here's the Vieuxtemps with the highest B1- , hoping it doesn't just depend on how the violin is excited or how it was taken...:)

1293638282_VieuxtempsIHSSectrum.thumb.jpg.c0e9007d32dcd61bc0492a987e6b6cc8.jpg

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6 hours ago, Eugen Modri said:

1. How do you know that ?

2. Did he specifically mention Szeryng ?

3. And what was wrong with Grumiaux ?

4. I am not asking why he did not like ASM - I think I know that one. 

5. He had a notoriously vicious character when it came to his colleagues.

1. I was around. 

2. Yes, very specifically. The moron who edited the interview later chopped that part. But it still exists.

3. Not getting into that one.

4. Pretty obvious - you get no bonus points.

5. No more than others. Ok, maybe a bit more. But one should appreciate he was super super super  competent and always supplied a solution. Lots of empty talk and hand waving from others.

( please move this to the Fingerboard - not a subject for the Pegbox . )

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1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

Thanks for the spectra. Here's the Vieuxtemps with the highest B1- , hoping it doesn't just depend on how the violin is excited or how it was taken...:)

Well, yes... it does matter.  Usually spectra taken on a test rig have the violin suspended with rubber bands.  I used to hold the violin by the neck and hold the chinrest against my body to get a more realistic playing constraint, but for the last several years have opted to just hold by the neck.

1459526130_Response-constraints.jpg.fef1ca93fc872a5d998457fe5db36e92.jpg

It also matters a lot if there is a chinrest or not...

525196627_Response-chinrest.jpg.63b9551d634baf1fd8d94f9d0ea887fb.jpg

The B1- seems a bit more sensitive to mass and constraints, and is strongest when suspended with no chinrest.  Also interesting is that the CBR acoustic output appears to get stronger with the chinrest and more constraints... perhaps some of the reason why the CBR hardly ever shows up on impact response plots, but is much stronger when bowed.

I am only covering the signature mode range here... the higher end of the spectrum is infinitely more dependent on how you take the spectrum, in addition to the chinrest and constraints.

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On 5/18/2020 at 1:28 PM, Davide Sora said:

I would like to report this interesting video about the wolftone on Del Gesù violins. This is the violinist's point of view and the violin is the Leduc.

Strangely, on this violin the wolf is on the natural B and I wondered what could be causing it: a very low B1+ or a very high B1-? Something else?

I am not familiar with this violin model and with its particular high and pinched arching shapes, it would be interesting to hear from someone who has used it what frequencies of the free plates modes and body modes come out, to see if a correlation can be found.

I know, free plate frequencies and body modes are shit for many, but I would just be curious to have some more data to mull over.

https://www.facebook.com/Augustin.Hadelich.Fans/videos/4028424000516216/

 

I was inspired by the sound of the Leduc and decided last month to make a model based on the Leduc. 

Plate weight and frequencies were completely average. I used a rather low-RR wood around 14, Top came out around 70 gms with Bassbar at 370 Hz M5, The slab cut back was at 109 g and 340 Hz M5. A0  286, B1- 456, B1+ 536.

Please keep in mind that my method does not use tap-tones as a goal at all, so these frequencies are not „tuned“ or something like that. I am also pretty shure that the Leduc has pretty different plate frequencies compared to mine.

The leduc model is soundwise special. It is the perfect violin for players looking for a rather mellow but still very powerful sound. It has almost no edge, and that is probably why some people do not like the sound. 

I didn’t like the sound from the recordings too much, but i am pretty satisfied with the Leduc as a model and i will keep it as a standard in my repertoire.

 

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9 hours ago, Don Noon said:

It also matters a lot if there is a chinrest or not...

 

I have a sense that the player can compensate for anything as long as the violin is intrinsically  loud.  Probably, loud should be the single thing to shoot for.  I mean if even putting on a certain chinrest changes everything about the spectrum...

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40 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

I have a sense that the player can compensate for anything as long as the violin is intrinsically  loud.  Probably, loud should be the single thing to shoot for.  I mean if even putting on a certain chinrest changes everything about the spectrum...

I often hear violinists referring to some modern violins as very loud but with lacking tone color.

Are those who claim this just bad violinists?:)

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14 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

The Vieuxtemps spectrum I posted is from Terry Borman

I know, but Curtin was the hammer swinger. He is the Thor of spectrum tunder ;)

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1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

I often hear violinists referring to some modern violins as very loud but with lacking tone color.

Are those who claim this just bad violinists?:)

I think that defines my earlier violins that had low density tops regardless of player.

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51 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

I think that defines my earlier violins that had low density tops regardless of player.

Agreed, consider for a moment the market for lower end commercial boxes today, IMHO, they have been hybridized for volume because that is what the market thinks it wants and that is the lowest common denominator of what is accepted within the market. When you remove the bellies, they are almost uniformly thin, (why?), and smooth as billiard balls, (modern made). But this wasn't always so, as evidenced by the rough gouged and scraped bellies of mass produced Markie, Mittie, and Mirecourt instruments from even 100 to 150 years ago. That includes some of the funky rough bass bars too. But again IMHO, I believe those commercial boxes, (at least they were handmade),  were reaching for tone with volume not necessarily being a prerequisite. In the shops back then they were on pretty tough work schedules and did not have the luxury of time or power tools as we do today, to make the interiors pretty. My shop probably would not have survived, most of my repair work is too slow!

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On May 19, 2020 at 11:42 AM, Davide Sora said:

Exactly, but the Leduc has quite high ribs and I would have expected an effect of greater stiffening of the soundbox and a consequent increase in the B1 + mode. But of course, it's not just the ribs.

 

On May 19, 2020 at 11:42 AM, Davide Sora said:

Exactly, but the Leduc has quite high ribs and I would have expected an effect of greater stiffening of the soundbox and a consequent increase in the B1 + mode. But of course, it's not just the ribs.

Davide

In what way would higher ribs stiffen the box? I would intuit just the opposite.

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1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

 

Davide

In what way would higher ribs stiffen the box? I would intuit just the opposite.

Try flexing a 10 cm high and a 3 cm high rib garland longitudinally and you will find the answer:)

I think it is similar to a beam, the thicker it is, the more it resists bending.

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On 5/21/2020 at 10:19 AM, Davide Sora said:

Are those who claim this just bad violinists?:)

The right answer is probably somebody would make it sound great

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Try flexing a 10 cm high and a 3 cm high rib garland longitudinally and you will find the answer:)

I think it is similar to a beam, the thicker it is, the more it resists bending.

Or  try bending a cardboard shoe box and a pizza box.

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7 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

 

In what way would higher ribs stiffen the box? I would intuit just the opposite.

 

6 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

 

I think it is similar to a beam, the thicker it is, the more it resists bending.

 

I  believe that higher ribs are more flexible, not as a beam, but when flexed crosswise.

Only the lowest modes seem to try to bend the whole rib set as a beam.

Most higher modes seem to flex the ribs crosswise and in limited areas.

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34 minutes ago, donbarzino said:

 

 

I also believe that higher ribs are more flexible, not as a beam, but when flexed crosswise.

Only the lowest modes seem to try to bend the whole rib set as a beam.

Most higher modes seem to flex the ribs crosswise and in limited areas.

The ribs are bent especially in the c-bout which makes them very stiff.

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2 hours ago, donbarzino said:

I  believe that higher ribs are more flexible, not as a beam, but when flexed crosswise.

Only the lowest modes seem to try to bend the whole rib set as a beam.

Most higher modes seem to flex the ribs crosswise and in limited areas.

First of all, let's get the beam terminology straight... normally "b" for "width" and "h" for "height" (or "d" for "depth") is used.  Stiffness in bending is proportional to bh^3... so a taller rib will be stiffer any   way you look at it, unless you make it thinner.  And just FYI, a rib 30mm high and 1mm thick (wide) will be 900X stiffer in vertical bending than in side flexing.

If you really want to isolate the stiffness of the rib itself, try tweaking a garland with no plates attached.  The ribs will flex in and out easily enough, as we all know.  But since the ribs are S-shaped, you can easily get vertical movement, with the rib twisting.  This twisting motion is what happens in the signature modes, perhaps with some side flexing thrown in.

To my way of thinking, normal ribs are so stiff vertically that it's close to rigid and they don't bend that way in vibration... so making them taller and stiffer won't do much.  Similarly , ribs a little bit taller will still be wimpy in lateral flexing and twisting, where the plates are likely controlling the modes... so taller ribs won't do much there, either.

This only applies to differences of a mm or two; if you double the height, some other strange effects might come in.

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Back to the problem of having a wolf note. This often happens when a resonance peak is too high.  If you are trying to save a violin there are several last ditch rescue efforts you could try by themselves or together in various combinations in no particular oder of the chances of success:

1.  Use lighter tension strings.

2.  Use a bridge with a wider foot spacing.

3.  Use a heavier bridge or add weights to the top edge of the bridge.

4.  Try adding a weights to the string after length tuned to the wolf note pitch.

5.   Tune some other part of the violin to the same wolf note frequency such as the tail piece or the fingerboard/neck. This will split the big offending resonance peak into two lower ones. 

6.  Add something to get the wolf note to fall in between played notes.  Different chin rests or shoulder rests, move some magnet weights around on the top plate.

7.  Do a modal analysis to see where the wolf note vibration is occurring.  Add weights or exterior stiffening bars (Sam Z's gluey type of thing) at that location to reduce the vibration.

7.  Make a new violin.

 

If you are building a new violin I suggest two different approaches for accomplish the same thing:

8.  Leave the plates thick and assemble the violin.  Thin the plates from the outside until a wolf note just begins to emerge.  Stop thinning and slap some varnish (adds weight and stiffness) on to kill the baby wolf(sounds cruel doesn't it?).

9. Or, leave the plates thick, varnish the outside surfaces, assemble the violin and play it.  If no wolf occurs take it apart and thin the plates some more on their inside surfaces.  Keep on repeating these steps until a wolf note just becomes noticeable and still manageable by the player and then stop.

 

A special problem happens when two strong resonance peaks happen to occur exactly or nearly exactly  an octave apart.  For example the B1+ is exactly or nearly exactly twice the A0 frequency.  A note with a strong fundamental frequency (first harmonic) and a strong second harmonic can produce a really bad wolf note.  In this case it is possible to raise the A0 frequency a little by enlarging the f holes it in order to miss the 2x ratio.  Or the f holes can be taped over to reduce their area thereby lowering the A0 frequency to also miss the 2x ratio.  This may help but it looks lousy. 

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