Davide Sora

Dances with wolftones

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I would like to report this interesting video about the wolftone on Del Gesù violins. This is the violinist's point of view and the violin is the Leduc.

Strangely, on this violin the wolf is on the natural B and I wondered what could be causing it: a very low B1+ or a very high B1-? Something else?

I am not familiar with this violin model and with its particular high and pinched arching shapes, it would be interesting to hear from someone who has used it what frequencies of the free plates modes and body modes come out, to see if a correlation can be found.

I know, free plate frequencies and body modes are shit for many, but I would just be curious to have some more data to mull over.

https://www.facebook.com/Augustin.Hadelich.Fans/videos/4028424000516216/

 

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Hi Davide,

For B1 modes to "fall into place" where you want them there is no short cut.

You have to get the arching adapted to the properties of the wood used. This involves tuning frequencies of the plates before hollowing out the inside.

When tuning the plates before hollowing out to certain frequencies, you will automatically arrive at corresponding M5 when hollowing out, thus specific weight and thicknesses of the plates.

This in turn leads to specific B1 modes.

Tuning plates ala Hutchins gives random B1 modes

br.

Peter

 

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Cool video, I would appreciate a more physics oriented explanation. The  Leduc provides lots of sleuthing material. I think a lot of us learn the technical schtick by osmosis. That's why I love the Oberlin acoustics workshops, generally over my head but infinitely interesting.

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2 hours ago, Peter K-G said:

Hi Davide,

For B1 modes to "fall into place" where you want them there is no short cut.

You have to get the arching adapted to the properties of the wood used. This involves tuning frequencies of the plates before hollowing out the inside.

When tuning the plates before hollowing out to certain frequencies, you will automatically arrive at corresponding M5 when hollowing out, thus specific weight and thicknesses of the plates.

This in turn leads to specific B1 modes.

Tuning plates ala Hutchins gives random B1 modes

br.

Peter

 

Hi Peter,

are you saying that the frequency of the tap tone of the plate before hollowing will be equal to the frequency of the B1 mode of the finished violin? Did I understand correctly?

If yes, which plate (top and back) and which mode (B1 + / B1-)?

And then, what frequency of each plate? I hear at least two frequencies in the plate before hollowing, which one to consider?

The lowest (holding in the center of the plate or on the edge of the plate on the centerline), or the highest (holding at 1/4 of the upper width and of the length, as for the M5 of the free plate)?

Sorry for the many questions, but what you say seems interesting to me and is something I had never considered.

One last question, do you have a scientific explanation for this or is it just a coincidence you noticed?

Thanks in advance.

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There are mainly two frequencies, that switch places and pattern during the arching/carving process. Top frequencies are much higher. Unfortunately I can't publish the data because it's under copy right. 

Here is an example of how the pattern of these frequencies can look like on a back plate

http://www.thestradsound.com/ongoing/extradostuned

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I would like to report this interesting video about the wolftone on Del Gesù violins. This is the violinist's point of view and the violin is the Leduc.

Strangely, on this violin the wolf is on the natural B and I wondered what could be causing it: a very low B1+ or a very high B1-? Something else?

I am not familiar with this violin model and with its particular high and pinched arching shapes, it would be interesting to hear from someone who has used it what frequencies of the free plates modes and body modes come out, to see if a correlation can be found.

I know, free plate frequencies and body modes are shit for many, but I would just be curious to have some more data to mull over.

https://www.facebook.com/Augustin.Hadelich.Fans/videos/4028424000516216/

 

Thank you for the video Maestro Sora ! I am very ( very ! ) sorry to say I find this violin pretty underwhelming. I wonder why : is it strings, adjustments, maybe the player ? Is this kind of tone something top makers such as yourself strive for ?

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34 minutes ago, Eugen Modri said:

Thank you for the video Maestro Sora ! I am very ( very ! ) sorry to say I find this violin pretty underwhelming. I wonder why : is it strings, adjustments, maybe the player ? Is this kind of tone something top makers such as yourself strive for ?

I do not particularly, but I have never heard it live and therefore I cannot say. Anyway much depends on the player, we should ask Hadelich if he would have chosen it if they had not given it to him in use, it is difficult to say no when they loan you a Del Gesù.;)

Anyway it seems that at least Szeryng liked it.

PS : no need to be sorry for disliking the violin, I'm glad when someone expresses his opinion without being influenced by "big names"...

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The B1+ resonance occurring on a B natural is a lower frequency than average for any violin, particularly for a delGesu, which tend to be on the small and thick side.  (as Davide noted in the first post).

Is there any data on that specific violin to explain what is going on?  Is it unusually thin?

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I am an inexperienced maker, but the template for my first 5-6 builds was a Gaurneri with a fairly high arch.  And my own inexperience led to a pinched arch shape.  All of these builds had a wolf somewhere near the B natural, definitely below the C.  But I did so many other things poorly it is hard to say anything certain!

I have since switched to a Stradivari form and find the wolf - when there is one - is at the C or just a little higher.

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2 hours ago, Eugen Modri said:

Thank you for the video Maestro Sora ! I am very ( very ! ) sorry to say I find this violin pretty underwhelming. I wonder why : is it strings, adjustments, maybe the player ? Is this kind of tone something top makers such as yourself strive for ?

Somebody who knew that violin pretty well and who's opinion I trust claims it does not sound as it used to and it's now much less wolfy. It could be that in 30 some years it's been worked on more or less successful. Rather less from what I hear on a couple of recent recordings.

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55 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

The B1+ resonance occurring on a B natural is a lower frequency than average for any violin, particularly for a delGesu, which tend to be on the small and thick side.  (as Davide noted in the first post).

Is there any data on that specific violin to explain what is going on?  Is it unusually thin?

From Biddulph book :

293004648_Leducthicknessesandribheights.jpg.930220e7398d7c77bf62b24bfbe5e581.jpg

Arching heights measured from the drawings (not indicated in the book) are 16+ mm for the back and 17+ mm for the top.

This is the top plate cross arch :

834400213_Leductopcrossarch.jpg.a46d70744500ecf2c0a5955ee1f08bee.jpg

 

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41 minutes ago, Shunyata said:

I am an inexperienced maker, but the template for my first 5-6 builds was a Gaurneri with a fairly high arch.  And my own inexperience led to a pinched arch shape.  All of these builds had a wolf somewhere near the B natural, definitely below the C.  But I did so many other things poorly it is hard to say anything certain!

I have since switched to a Stradivari form and find the wolf - when there is one - is at the C or just a little higher.

What does a fairly high arch mean? Measures?

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1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

The B1+ resonance occurring on a B natural is a lower frequency than average for any violin, particularly for a delGesu, which tend to be on the small and thick side.  (as Davide noted in the first post).

Is there any data on that specific violin to explain what is going on?  Is it unusually thin?

 

24 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

From Biddulph book :

293004648_Leducthicknessesandribheights.jpg.930220e7398d7c77bf62b24bfbe5e581.jpg

Arching heights measured from the drawings (not indicated in the book) are 16+ mm for the back and 17+ mm for the top.

This is the top plate cross arch :

834400213_Leductopcrossarch.jpg.a46d70744500ecf2c0a5955ee1f08bee.jpg

 

That's certainly not one of the thickest Del Gesus. A combination of the thinness, combined with a weak wood, and even more so a weak wood which is also heavy, can easily give a B1+ mode which is as low as B natural, or about 494 hz.

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In my experience, the wolf is in the area of B -C, maybe both, or some point in between.  So just on that, i don't see anything unusual here.  Can't see why anyone would complain about the sound, either.  Sounds great to me...

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On Biddulph's book, Cannone, Vieuxtemps and Leduc are reported as the most impressive violins, on a tonal point of view.
It's a curious fact : the first two, very  heavy and stiff, low arch violins, the last one, lighter, higher archings, much more flexible (except a stiffer cc- bout curve compared the other two).

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21 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

Somebody who knew that violin pretty well and who's opinion I trust claims it does not sound as it used to and it's now much less wolfy. It could be that in 30 some years it's been worked on more or less successful. Rather less from what I hear on a couple of recent recordings.

I am quite curious as to what the perceived differences may be. We played with Szeryng in 78-9 and I have the live recorded LP. Violin sounds more or less similar. I wonder if they go downhill and in which direction. Or maybe they get better.  Also, what is your opinion ? I saw on another thread a player I respect a lot wasn't impressed with it.

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21 hours ago, David Burgess said:

 

That's certainly not one of the thickest Del Gesus. A combination of the thinness, combined with a weak wood, and even more so a weak wood which is also heavy, can easily give a B1+ mode which is as low as B natural, or about 494 hz.

Everything else in the violin body: ribs, backs, necks, fingerboards etc. also affect the B1+ mode frequency too.  

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15 hours ago, Alessandro Peiretti said:

On Biddulph's book, Cannone, Vieuxtemps and Leduc are reported as the most impressive violins, on a tonal point of view.
It's a curious fact : the first two, very  heavy and stiff, low arch violins, the last one, lighter, higher archings, much more flexible (except a stiffer cc- bout curve compared the other two).

It would be interesting to know where the Cannone and Vieuxtemps have the wolftones and of which magnitude.

I'd like to know those of Lord Wilton too.

I posted this video because it is quite rare to hear from the players an analysis of the wolftones of their (famous) violins, I think it's interesting and sometimes enlightening.

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36 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Everything else in the violin body: ribs, backs, necks, fingerboards etc. also affect the B1+ mode frequency too.  

Exactly, but the Leduc has quite high ribs and I would have expected an effect of greater stiffening of the soundbox and a consequent increase in the B1 + mode. But of course, it's not just the ribs.

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8 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

It would be interesting to know where the Cannone and Vieuxtemps have the wolftones and of which magnitude.

I'd like to know those of Lord Wilton too.

I posted this video because it is quite rare to hear from the players an analysis of the wolftones of their (famous) violins, I think it's interesting and sometimes enlightening.

A, B1- (~445 Hz)

At 5:40 

Dgs often have higher db B1- 

 

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13 minutes ago, Peter K-G said:

A, B1- (~445 Hz)

At 5:40 

Dgs often have higher db B1- 

 

See at 14:54, the wolf is gone. Maybe it was just the old worn-out string?:)

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6 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

See at 14:54, the wolf is gone. Maybe it was just the old worn-out string?:)

;) I know, seen the video many times. It's not gone, but hidden with new string. Less drastic than playing around with the sound post

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There is not enough spectrum data, but some conclutions can be made that dgs have stronger B1- in relation to B1+ than Strads, for example the Plowden has a lovely strong A. Vieuxtemps spectrum also indicates this (from what I can remember, not sure)

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1 hour ago, Peter K-G said:

There is not enough spectrum data, but some conclutions can be made that dgs have stronger B1- in relation to B1+ than Strads, for example the Plowden has a lovely strong A. Vieuxtemps spectrum also indicates this (from what I can remember, not sure)

Or....a less strong B1 + compared to B1-:)

I have the impression that it may be caused by less longitudinal stiffness possibly caused by a less extended channel of Del Gesù archings (at least in the three violins mentioned) compared to Strads.

But it is only a risky hypothesis that comes to my mind, I would not confirm it under oath:ph34r:

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