Nails position

[FiddleDoug]

" what do you think about screws? "

Both nails and screws have a wedging action, which can split the neck. If you have a hole drilled all the way through, you don't have the wedging action, and the bolt only puts compression on the joint. Easy to control with a torque wrench.

[Davide Sora]

On 5/7/2020 at 9:52 PM, Fade said:

Someone of you has seen where ancient liuthers put the sleeves nails?

This is where Stradivari put them.  Tuscan violin 1690, one of the rare with the original block, from the book of Scrollavezza and Zanrè.

Do you think they are in the right nodal position? It seems to me that he simply put them logically, that is, symmetrical and in the center of the block.

[Fade]

4 hours ago, donbarzino said:

The problem with both nails and screws in this application is that you are going into the end grain of the neck

which presents less resistance to splitting and withdrawl .

 

And so which is the consequence?

Will it be more easy that it will break in that part? Or you cannot take advantage in that area cause with less resistance?

[Fade]

1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

This is where Stradivari put them.  Tuscan violin 1690, one of the rare with the original block, from the book of Scrollavezza and Zanrè.

Do you think they are in the right nodal position? It seems to me that he simply put them logically, that is, symmetrical and in the center of the block.

Oooooo woow that's the first time I see a picture of this! Thank you so much Davide! It's about what is locical that we should discuss! There are other factors to consider...If we consider the asymmetey of the tensions cause E and A strings pull more than G and D, maybe also an asymmetry of the position of the nails could be considerable! Even the angle of the neck laterally, I thought maybe on the treeble side to make it less "perpendicolar" then to the other...

The neck pulls more on the treeble side so we need to give more resistance on that side maybe...

 

[David Beard]

8 minutes ago, Fade said:

Oooooo woow that's the first time I see a picture of this! Thank you so much Davide! It's about what is locical that we should discuss! There are other factors to consider...If we consider the asymmetey of the tensions cause E and A strings pull more than G and D, maybe also an asymmetry of the position of the nails could be considerable! Even the angle of the neck laterally, I thought maybe on the treeble side to make it less "perpendicolar" then to the other...

The neck pulls more on the treeble side so we need to give more resistance on that side maybe...

 

They look like four nails simply placed in they easiest spreadout positions possible.

Not complicated.  No precise. Just sensible and simple.

[Johnmasters]

12 hours ago, Fade said:

Yes but I would like to plan where to put nails , how many and the geometry of the top block to have everything connected with a reason...

I know that nodes and antinodes are in different places for different modes but I consider the fundamental mode cause I think has more importance. Of course modes change when you fix that piece to something else, so would be good to understand how it willl change and to fix it in the "right" place.

I love math and physics would be good for me to plan other stuff too like angles of the strings between bridge and tailpiece and lots of other things... like angles,masses of the components and geonetry to balance the tension of the strings that is algo pulling more from one side than to the other so maybe an asymmetry would be right to do...

I'm not worried but enthusiast of experimenting!

But I still think it is a blind alley and no reason to believe it is critical.  

[Davide Sora]

10 hours ago, Fade said:

The neck pulls more on the treeble side so we need to give more resistance on that side maybe...

This is correct, in my opinion one more reason to make a solid and well glued mortised joint. Perhaps one of the reasons that led luthiers to replace the nailed necks with the mortised ones? I think so.

[FiddleDoug]

From Petherick:

"Under present circumstances, more care than usual with modern violins has to be exercised, as the repairer knows that it was customary with the old Italian makers to secure the neck to the upper block by one, two, or at times even three nails. They were driven in from the interior before the final closing up or fixing of the upper table. Sometimes a screw is found in the same place instead of nails. These arrangements point to a want of confidence in glue by these old masters, notwithstanding the evidence we have of their using the finest quality only. "

His opinion was that the nails (or screw) were only there because the makers didn't trust the glue. No rhyme or reason for number of nails (or screw). I still think that if you really want so secure the neck, a large bolt would do it

 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

20 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

While you're at it, file the drilled hole to make a slot so you can move the neck/fingerboard up and down.  You can also add tapered shims between the neck and the body so you can adjust the string angle.

Attached are some photos showing this on an early experimental viola I made.  

 

[jezzupe]

13 hours ago, David Beard said:

They look like four nails simply placed in they easiest spreadout positions possible.

Not complicated.  No precise. Just sensible and simple.

More to the point, these nail patterns are "based" on construction methods developed in home building and are based on logic and basic physics

but while we're at it this "nail" thing is something that has bothered me from the very get go...

or; if the Italian masters were so great, why did they nail on their necks instead of doing an inset glued joint as is common today.

I'm sorry but  I consider the nails thing to be a major WTF are you people thinking and it's the one thing that has always made me question the "genius" in it all. 

[Davide Sora]

2 hours ago, jezzupe said:

More to the point, these nail patterns are "based" on construction methods developed in home building and are based on logic and basic physics

but while we're at it this "nail" thing is something that has bothered me from the very get go...

or; if the Italian masters were so great, why did they nail on their necks instead of doing an inset glued joint as is common today.

I'm sorry but  I consider the nails thing to be a major WTF are you people thinking and it's the one thing that has always made me question the "genius" in it all. 

Quicker and easier than a mortise and tenon system? I suspect this is the reason, also because Stradivari used the dovetail joint on his "viola da gamba", for example, but with the high demand for the new violin family instruments, he must have thought it was too difficult and slow if you have the hurry to make hundreds and hundreds...

[jezzupe]

1 minute ago, Davide Sora said:

Quicker and easier than a mortise and tenon system? I suspect this is the reason, also because Stradivari used the dovetail joint on his "viola da gamba", for example, but with the high demand for the new violin family instruments, he must have thought it was too difficult and slow if you have the hurry to make hundreds and hundreds...

I guess that's the prevailing reasoning, but that doesn't compute, when I think of all the time put into the rest of it.

Not only that, the danger of putting 4 nails or even 1 in such a small butt end seems nutso. To pre-drill a hole would reduce splitting but it would also reduce holding power.

I dunno,to me above anything else, the "why did they use nails instead of glued joint" thing is the biggest mystery to me in violin world.

I don't buy into the "they didn't trust the glue" thing, else wise we'd see butterflies or staples on the center seams. 

It's just one of my pet peeves , and here this guy wants to put nails in there , oh well.

[jacobsaunders]

_{I would dispute that the nailed on neck died out because the mortised (not dovetailed!) neck was superior. Antique violins knew two working methods pre 1780ish, 1. the nailed on neck, and 2. the through neck, without a top block. Both methods died out in the 19th C. and were replaced with mortised necks because the modern method was much better suited to repair}

[David Burgess]

52 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

_{I would dispute that the nailed on neck died out because the mortised (not dovetailed!) neck was superior. Antique violins knew two working methods pre 1780ish, 1. the nailed on neck, and 2. the through neck, without a top block. Both methods died out in the 19th C. and were replaced with mortised necks because the modern method was much better suited to repair}

That would be my guess too. After 200+ years of nailed and through-necks, somebody finally figured out that neck projections drop, and there might be easier and less destructive ways of dealing with dimensional changes?

[Evan Smith]

Since a Giraffes neck is hinged and goes back and forth when he runs, and he can run really fast,

maybe,,,, if a violins neck is hinged it will go fast too!

 

[Fade]

23 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

This is correct, in my opinion one more reason to make a solid and well glued mortised joint. Perhaps one of the reasons that led luthiers to replace the nailed necks with the mortised ones? I think so.

It would have sense.

But with mortise we have a difference of mass, for me the neck will be good fixed and fitted but the complex of the top wood + neck will give less resistance.

For me a little bit of mortise is ok but not too deep.

Then i wouldn't do the mortise perfectly perpendicolar to the longitudinal axis 

[Fade]

3 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

Since a Giraffes neck is hinged and goes back and forth when he runs, and he can run really fast,

maybe,,,, if a violins neck is hinged it will go fast too!

 

I like this example! Also runners with bottles on their hands, the movement of arms + bottles(mass)give you like a push, but if you use your arms with the bottles not in phase with the movement of the legs you will have them working on opposition phase and this will breake you!

[Fade]

21 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

From Petherick:

"Under present circumstances, more care than usual with modern violins has to be exercised, as the repairer knows that it was customary with the old Italian makers to secure the neck to the upper block by one, two, or at times even three nails. They were driven in from the interior before the final closing up or fixing of the upper table. Sometimes a screw is found in the same place instead of nails. These arrangements point to a want of confidence in glue by these old masters, notwithstanding the evidence we have of their using the finest quality only. "

His opinion was that the nails (or screw) were only there because the makers didn't trust the glue. No rhyme or reason for number of nails (or screw). I still think that if you really want so secure the neck, a large bolt would do it

 

Only one bolt? Maybe it will break more easily only with one? Cause the tension is all on 1 bolt.

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, Fade said:

Only one bolt? Maybe it will break more easily only with one? Cause the tension is all on 1 bolt.

Wouldn't that depend on the strength of the bolt?

A good-quality quarter-inch diameter bolt will apply a reliable clamping load of 7200 pounds

[Fade]

40 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Wouldn't that depend on the strength of the bolt?

I mean the wood maybe will break around to the position of the bolt?

Because if we use only one there is more "work" in the same place I think.

[Mark Caudle]

The idea that there is more tension on the treble side does not apply to Stradivari's time when equal tension stringing was the norm.

The advantage of nailing the neck is that with the neck fixed to the ribs before gluing to the back, any misalignment of the neck could be corrected and the back outline adjusted before being glued to the ribs.

[nathan slobodkin]

10 hours ago, Mark Caudle said:

The idea that there is more tension on the treble side does not apply to Stradivari's time when equal tension stringing was the norm.

The advantage of nailing the neck is that with the neck fixed to the ribs before gluing to the back, any misalignment of the neck could be corrected and the back outline adjusted before being glued to the ribs.

I knew if I kept reading this thread somebody might say something interesting. I have heard of equal tension stringing but don't really understand how that worked and what is the advantage (or not) of our current thinking on string tension.

[David Burgess]

19 hours ago, Mark Caudle said:

The idea that there is more tension on the treble side does not apply to Stradivari's time when equal tension stringing was the norm.

 

How do we know what the string tensions were in Stradivari's time?

[Mark Caudle]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

How do we know what the string tensions were in Stradivari's time?

There is quite a lot of information from Mersenne in 1636 onwards. The Aquila String website has a lot of historical info although Equal tension and its variants is a matter of heated controversy!

[Fade]

21 hours ago, Mark Caudle said:

The idea that there is more tension on the treble side does not apply to Stradivari's time when equal tension stringing was the norm.

The advantage of nailing the neck is that with the neck fixed to the ribs before gluing to the back, any misalignment of the neck could be corrected and the back outline adjusted before being glued to the ribs.

That is one of the advantages.

Do you know how much could it be the tension at that time?

I 'm not relating the different tension on treeble with the use of nails.