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Nails position

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43 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Yeah, but you're an engineer, so you know how to  both "nail"and "screw" stuff.

You think I haven't noticed the women throwing you their room keys"? :D

oh' I thought he was a lawyer :lol:

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4 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

If early violin makers had a modern hardware store nearby they might have used wood screws instead of nails.  

Surely wood screws were fairly commonplace at that time?

Andrew

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17 minutes ago, rudall said:

Surely wood screws were fairly commonplace at that time?

Andrew

Not to my knowledge. High-production thread rolling, thread stamping and die-cutting came along a bit later, didn't they?

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5 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Not to my knowledge. Production thread rolling and thread stamping came along a bit later, didn't they?

They were available before violins existed. Presumably hand made. Machine production began in the late 18th century. 

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43 minutes ago, rudall said:

Surely wood screws were fairly commonplace at that time?

Andrew

 

20 minutes ago, rudall said:

They were available before violins existed. Presumably hand made. Machine production began in the late 18th century. 

Something being available can be quite different from it being either commonplace, or affordable.

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1 hour ago, rudall said:

They were available before violins existed. Presumably hand made. Machine production began in the late 18th century. 

I know in the gun making trade they were hand made with a file...

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

 

Something being available can be quite different from it being either commonplace, or affordable.

Well, we don't want a good hand made screw to be commonplace.

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On 5/7/2020 at 3:52 PM, Fade said:

Hi guys! I would like to ask you about the position of the nails for fixing the neck. I drawed this to show where for me would be good to put it , my thought is that when I want to fix 2 parts I want to do it on the nodal lines(where vibrations are minimum) I think it could be better to fix it like this without glue to let the vibrations to be transmitted between the neck and the body of the violin cause I think glue stop the transmissions of vibration.

A is for antinode and N is for node.

What do you think about it?

Someone of you has seen where ancient liuthers put the sleeves?

 

IMG_20200331_005342.jpg

Your use of the concept of nodal lines are not appropriate.  They are in different places for different modes, and complex motions are made of a superposition of modes.  In that case,  there usually are not any stationary positions.   

The math is that of linear algebra,  and it corresponds to the math of a first course or two in quantum mechanics.  I love QM,  linear algebra,  and finally the notion of normal modes in a vibrating body.  I understand it,  and I can tell you to stop worrying about such things.

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22 hours ago, Fade said:

Only one nail? Maybe was before 1700?

Sure they wanted to hold the neck mainly but I see this connection.

I think is important to fix it without dig a "hole" because of the phase of the transmission of the vibrations. Maybe just a little bit you can do it. For the geometry of the curvature of the inner block(where neck is fixed) I think we get an opposite phase of the transmission between neck and body of violin if we dig inside.

It's just my idea 

First I would try to verify if what you are saying is true. I don't see why the acoustic behavior of the violin should change with a hole in the top block, filled with a nail or not. 

The difference of mass is absolutely neglible, so is the difference of stiffness in that area with or without hole.

 

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15 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

First I would try to verify if what you are saying is true. I don't see why the acoustic behavior of the violin should change with a hole in the top block, filled with a nail or not. 

The difference of mass is absolutely neglible, so is the difference of stiffness in that area with or without hole.

 

My reading of fade describing "I think is important to fix it without dig a "hole" because of the phase of the transmission of the vibrations" is that he/she is talking about the neck being morticed. But I could be wrong.

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5 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

First I would try to verify if what you are saying is true. I don't see why the acoustic behavior of the violin should change with a hole in the top block, filled with a nail or not. 

The difference of mass is absolutely neglible, so is the difference of stiffness in that area with or without hole.

 

Thank you for your attention I hope to don't make you lose time uselessly!

When I say "hole" I don't mean the hole made by the nails but the hole that is digged inside the top block for adapting inside it the neck. There is a not negligible difference of mass if we make this hole inside the top block or not in my opinion. 

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17 minutes ago, Fade said:

the hole that is digged inside the top block for adapting inside it the neck. 

Known as a "mortice" in English

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5 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

My reading of fade describing "I think is important to fix it without dig a "hole" because of the phase of the transmission of the vibrations" is that he/she is talking about the neck being morticed. But I could be wrong.

Ahahahahahahah you are right man! Sorry now I know it! Yes I talk about the  mortice!

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4 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Known as a "mortice" in English

I was thinking english language didn't have so many words...I was wrong!

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11 hours ago, Johnmasters said:

Your use of the concept of nodal lines are not appropriate.  They are in different places for different modes, and complex motions are made of a superposition of modes.  In that case,  there usually are not any stationary positions.   

The math is that of linear algebra,  and it corresponds to the math of a first course or two in quantum mechanics.  I love QM,  linear algebra,  and finally the notion of normal modes in a vibrating body.  I understand it,  and I can tell you to stop worrying about such things.

Yes but I would like to plan where to put nails , how many and the geometry of the top block to have everything connected with a reason...

I know that nodes and antinodes are in different places for different modes but I consider the fundamental mode cause I think has more importance. Of course modes change when you fix that piece to something else, so would be good to understand how it willl change and to fix it in the "right" place.

I love math and physics would be good for me to plan other stuff too like angles of the strings between bridge and tailpiece and lots of other things... like angles,masses of the components and geonetry to balance the tension of the strings that is algo pulling more from one side than to the other so maybe an asymmetry would be right to do...

I'm not worried but enthusiast of experimenting!

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1 hour ago, Fade said:

Thank you for your attention I hope to don't make you lose time uselessly!

When I say "hole" I don't mean the hole made by the nails but the hole that is digged inside the top block for adapting inside it the neck. There is a not negligible difference of mass if we make this hole inside the top block or not in my opinion. 

Confusing enough, 

So why is the title 'nail position?'

If you are talking about the mortice and have the intention to save weight by nailing the neck to the ribs, well, just with a rough estimate, I don't think this changes anything. The nail is certainly heavier than the saved weight. 

Bernardel pere made excellent sounding instruments. The mortice of his necks is often very deep. I have worked on one where it was 10mm deep.

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"Yes but I would like to plan where to put nails , how many and the geometry of the top block to have everything connected with a reason... "

I still think you're way off base with nails. If you really want to anchor it with positive control, use a bolt (about 1/4inch, 5-6mm) , washers, and nut. By drilling the hole through the neck and upper block, you eliminate the splitting effect of driving nails, and by using a torque wrench, you can very precisely control the tightness of the joint.

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2 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

"Yes but I would like to plan where to put nails , how many and the geometry of the top block to have everything connected with a reason... "

I still think you're way off base with nails. If you really want to anchor it with positive control, use a bolt (about 1/4inch, 5-6mm) , washers, and nut. By drilling the hole through the neck and upper block, you eliminate the splitting effect of driving nails, and by using a torque wrench, you can very precisely control the tightness of the joint.

While you're at it, file the drilled hole to make a slot so you can move the neck/fingerboard up and down.  You can also add tapered shims between the neck and the body so you can adjust the string angle.

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3 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Confusing enough, 

So why is the title 'nail position?'

If you are talking about the mortice and have the intention to save weight by nailing the neck to the ribs, well, just with a rough estimate, I don't think this changes anything. The nail is certainly heavier than the saved weight. 

Bernardel pere made excellent sounding instruments. The mortice of his necks is often very deep. I have worked on one where it was 10mm deep.

Because I made this topic for asking if someone knows where the ancient liuthers put the nails and how many and if the position I drawed could have sense for you...but nobody gave me an answer about it. 

The mortise is not related to this topic but we are here and I wanted to talk also about it...

When did I say I want to save weight?

With the mortise you save more weight I think then without... 

I said that with mortise we could have a changement on the phase of the vibrations between body and neck and it's possible to have an opposite phase,but I cannot verify that for the moment.

 

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3 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

"Yes but I would like to plan where to put nails , how many and the geometry of the top block to have everything connected with a reason... "

I still think you're way off base with nails. If you really want to anchor it with positive control, use a bolt (about 1/4inch, 5-6mm) , washers, and nut. By drilling the hole through the neck and upper block, you eliminate the splitting effect of driving nails, and by using a torque wrench, you can very precisely control the tightness of the joint.

That's sound good! But a nail is more thin then bolt with nut and washers...but in the way you say maybe it will not break easily like nails... what do you think about screws?

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49 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

While you're at it, file the drilled hole to make a slot so you can move the neck/fingerboard up and down.  You can also add tapered shims between the neck and the body so you can adjust the string angle.

Smart idea but I think I'll lose power with this optional.

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30 minutes ago, Fade said:

That's sound good! But a nail is more thin then bolt with nut and washers...but in the way you say maybe it will not break easily like nails... what do you think about screws?

A thinner and lighter threaded fastener will usually secure parts better than a thicker and heavier nail, and will also allow better control over the amount of compression on the joint.

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The problem with both nails and screws in this application is that you are going into the end grain of the neck

which presents less resistance to splitting and withdrawl .

 

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