Nails position

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26 minutes ago, notsodeepblue said:

Unless it is your intention to make only the neck and the upper block, and then strike the upper block with a little hammer, your schematisation and subsequent analysis of the violin / neck interface is far too simplistic:

How do you imagine the pattern of nodes / antinodes you have drawn will change when the upper block is itself glued to a violin body, and its free-ends are no longer free? And when the forcing causing the vibration is complex and continuous, rather than percussive? And what happens when the system is being forced at both the block end and the neck end, by a coupled source? 

Looking at a heavily idealised representation of a joint can often be useful for taks such as understanding structural performance (so perhaps choosing numbers of nails / size / nature of the joint), but the problem you are trying to "solve" is infinitely more nuanced and complex, and your analysis sheds little light on it in my opinion.

Good luck,

Good questions! You are right! I dont know how the patterns of nodal lines will change but I think to fix theese parts in the best position related to the geometrical form of the single pieces ,maybe would be good to do it in a way similar to that. I don't think there is some difference if it is continuos or percussive the vibration. I just mind to fix 2 pieces together in the place where they are more "stable" and at the same time letting the other parts vibrating

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16 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

As I said in my first post, after you posted about "sleeves": "Sounds like you've some kind of crack pot theory going here. " .  Nothing valid here!

 

I respet your opinion but you didnt refuted my theory

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18 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

This is sounding more and more like some kind of troll thing.

Ahahah you are very productive with your comment! Which football team do you support?

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36 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

This is sounding more and more like some kind of troll thing. OK, let's take a marimba (I do have experience with marimbas), and remove those discontinuous cords, and then nail all the bars down to the frame. I wonder how that would sound? Nothing valid or comparable here.

 

It will not sound how you would like to ear from a marimba but it's just an example for understandind that if you glue the keys of the marimba is even worst then if you fix them with nails on the nodal lines(in my opinion) 

And please I 'm not saying that i'm right I just would like to discuss with other makers about this point of view. You missed respect to me if you just say thats bullshit

[FiddleDoug]

32 minutes ago, Fade said:

I respet your opinion but you didnt refuted my theory

The problem with your "theory" is that you're trying to treat the neck of the violin like one of the keys. It actually part of the frame. It doesn't vibrate independently. The strings are more analogous to the keys on a marimba, and do have nodes when they are vibrating.

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9 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

The problem with your "theory" is that you're trying to treat the neck of the violin like one of the keys. It actually part of the frame. It doesn't vibrate independently. The strings are more analogous to the keys on a marimba, and do have nodes when they are vibrating.

True! I agree with you! It is not independent but I think that the form has a relation with the vibration even when is connected with other components.

[David Burgess]

1.  A Marimba key is designed to vibrate at only one set of frequencies. A violin body needs to vibrate at many frequencies, as the player inputs many different notes into the same instrument body.

2. A Marimba key is supported at the nodal points. A violin is not, during normal playing, with conventional hand position.

3. The "body mode" of a violin, in playing position, emits almost no sound. So it could be argued that any energy used to vibrate this mode is wasted, and would be better utilized vibrating a mode which emits a lot of sound.

[jezzupe]

Violins are a lot like life, you hear people say things like ,"well, it didn't turn out the way I imagined it would" Problem is many times peoples imaginations gets the best of them and they start imagining all sorts of things about all sorts of things that don't matter.

Never loose sight of why you are eating the bowl of soup, you don't want to think about it too much.

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37 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

1.  A Marimba key is designed to vibrate at only one set of frequencies. A violin body needs to vibrate at many frequencies, as the player inputs many different notes into the same instrument body.

2. A Marimba key is supported at the nodal points. A violin is not, during normal playing, with conventional hand position.

3. The "body mode" of a violin, in playing position, emits almost no sound. So it could be argued that any energy used to vibrate this mode is wasted, and would be better utilized vibrating a mode which emits a lot of sound.

 

7 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Violins are a lot like life, you hear people say things like ,"well, it didn't turn out the way I imagined it would" Problem is many times peoples imaginations gets the best of them and they start imagining all sorts of things about all sorts of things that don't matter.

Never loose sight of why you are eating the bowl of soup, you don't want to think about it too much.

Ehehe yes but it's also good sometimes to use imaginations and to be critical...maybe a lot scientists discovered things in this way...byt we can fix the neck in a lot of different ways and all of them have sense and will give different results

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50 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

1.  A Marimba key is designed to vibrate at only one set of frequencies. A violin body needs to vibrate at many frequencies, as the player inputs many different notes into the same instrument body.

2. A Marimba key is supported at the nodal points. A violin is not, during normal playing, with conventional hand position.

3. The "body mode" of a violin, in playing position, emits almost no sound. So it could be argued that any energy used to vibrate this mode is wasted, and would be better utilized vibrating a mode which emits a lot of sound.

They are totally different,I used marimba like example because it's supported at the nodal points of the fundamental mode and I do something similar considering the fundamental mode of that parts...but another point is about the phase of the transmissiin of the vibrations between neck and body, if we dig into the upper wood maybe could be some changement on the phase...it's something that I have in my mind and easily i'm wrong

[jezzupe]

Just now, Fade said:

 

Ehehe yes but it's also good sometimes to use imaginations and to be critical...maybe a lot scientists discovered things in this way...byt we can fix the neck in a lot of different ways and all of them have sense and will give different results

I am the king of imagination who is based in reality. You are free to think and do as you please, however I would suggest you are "imagining" that a nail has much to do about something whereas I would suggest that for the want of a nail has much to do about nothing as far as over all tone outcome is concerned.

Again reality rules supreme in the land of imagination, so one may ponder the tonal qualities of a toenail, I'd be much more concerned about the empirical realities of known outcomes of  driving a nail into the butt end of a hardwood that is known to have a transient dimensional stability 

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8 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

I am the king of imagination who is based in reality. You are free to think and do as you please, however I would suggest you are "imagining" that a nail has much to do about something whereas I would suggest that for the want of a nail has much to do about nothing as far as over all tone outcome is concerned.

Again reality rules supreme in the land of imagination, so one may ponder the tonal qualities of a toenail, I'd be much more concerned about the empirical realities of known outcomes of  driving a nail into the butt end of a hardwood that is known to have a transient dimensional stability 

Eheh got it! Actually the last violin I made it I broke the upper wood with a nail and then I used the glue, but the one before worked good!

Yes we have to put on the balance everything!

[Davide Sora]

3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

In my front room, there is a violin by Johannes Albrecht, Krems, from the year 1807. The original undisturbed neck is simply glued onto the ribs without a nail. That has held perfectly for 213 years now!

Exactly, glue is way better than nails.

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39 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Exactly, glue is way better than nails.

Different systems and different results! You can get a better results with glue or with nails ,it depends on your project. It would be good to predict what will happen if we choose one system or another one and to adaptate it to the others components. I started to use nails because I have never understood why ancient liuthers didnt put glue instead that nails...Sure thay had the same problem when they had to fix broken violins... modern liutheries are very dogmatics copying everything,even "strange"(uniques) things like thicknesseses,arching and dimensions,even if 300 years ago violins were not tuned to 440hz with equal tempered system,(i don't agree with that, cause their instruments were tuned to other frequencies, I think a maker has to tmake a project thinking to which will be the frequebcies that the strings will generate and so what you want is that the frequencies that the body of the violin will amplify will be armonical with the ones generated from the strings).

That's my opinion and if you want we can go back to the marimba wjere all the resonant tubes have precise dimensions related to the dimensions of the frequencies of each key

 

 

[Wood Butcher]

15 minutes ago, Fade said:

I started to use nails because I have never understood why ancient liuthers didnt put glue instead that nails...

How can you be sure that they only ever used nails? It could be that they were both nailed and glued.

[Nick Allen]

Fade. Just curious. Do you come from the electric guitar building community by chance?

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3 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

How can you be sure that they only ever used nails? It could be that they were both nailed and glued.

Yes! It's true! I don't know for sure what they did,I have just heard something. But they could just put glue without nails so that it will not break after.

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Just now, Nick Allen said:

Fade. Just curious. Do you come from the electric guitar building community by chance?

Noo I hate electric guitars! Eheh

[Nick Allen]

10 minutes ago, Fade said:

Noo I hate electric guitars! Eheh

But why? I love em. But that's just me. 

I only wondered because electric guitar makers tent to be judicial about adhesives, especially at the neck mortise. 

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14 minutes ago, Nick Allen said:

But why? I love em. But that's just me. 

I only wondered because electric guitar makers tent to be judicial about adhesives, especially at the neck mortise. 

I mean I hate the sound of electric guitars! Ah I didnt know it! I don't want to say that one system is better then another one, I tried to give a possible explanation of what happen on the transmission if we use nails. 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

If early violin makers had a modern hardware store nearby they might have used wood screws instead of nails.  

I've used a simple flat butt joint for attaching the neck with one wood screw through the block.  After I get the proper fingerboard projection and line up I glue it together with hide glue.  The instruments always sound better to me after the gluing.  Some of the lower resonance peaks get a little higher which makes the instrument slightly louder overall and its notes more even in loudness.  This might indicate better vibration transmission across the joint interface when the air gap is filled with glue.

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7 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

If early violin makers had a modern hardware store nearby they might have used wood screws instead of nails.  

I've used a simple flat butt joint for attaching the neck with one wood screw through the block.  After I get the proper fingerboard projection and line up I glue it together with hide glue.  The instruments always sound better to me after the gluing.  Some of the lower resonance peaks get a little higher which makes the instrument slightly louder overall and its notes more even in loudness.  This might indicate better vibration transmission across the joint interface when the air gap is filled with glue.

Interesting! But you fix it just with one screw ,thats not enough I think. Maybe with the glue is more stable and with only a screw it vibrates too much? Maybe it creates like beatments only with a screw?

[Marty Kasprzyk]

3 minutes ago, Fade said:

Interesting! But you fix it just with one screw ,thats not enough I think. Maybe with the glue is more stable and with only a screw it vibrates too much? Maybe it creates like beatments only with a screw?

Tightening the screw pulls the two flat joint surfaces as close together as possible which I believe improves the strength of a glued joint.  The screw also acts as a guide to get the neck properly positioned.   One screw is enough to do these things.

 

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59 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Tightening the screw pulls the two flat joint surfaces as close together as possible which I believe improves the strength of a glued joint.  The screw also acts as a guide to get the neck properly positioned.   One screw is enough to do these things.

 

For your purpose it's enough but not if you don't use glue, I think.

[David Burgess]

3 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

If early violin makers had a modern hardware store nearby they might have used wood screws instead of nails. 

Yeah, but you're an engineer, so you know how to  both "nail"and "screw" stuff.

You think I haven't noticed the women throwing you their room keys"?