Nails position

[Fade]

Hi guys! I would like to ask you about the position of the nails for fixing the neck. I drawed this to show where for me would be good to put it , my thought is that when I want to fix 2 parts I want to do it on the nodal lines(where vibrations are minimum) I think it could be better to fix it like this without glue to let the vibrations to be transmitted between the neck and the body of the violin cause I think glue stop the transmissions of vibration.

A is for antinode and N is for node.

What do you think about it?

Someone of you has seen where ancient liuthers put the sleeves?

 

 

[FiddleDoug]

What sleeves are you talking about? Ancient luthiers didn't use sleeves, some used nails, but that was mostly 300 years ago.  A thin, well fitted glue joint will transmit sound better than any kind of discontinuous joint. Sounds like you've some kind of crack pot theory going here.

[Fade]

13 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

What sleeves are you talking about? Ancient luthiers didn't use sleeves, some used nails, but that was mostly 300 years ago.  A thin, well fitted glue joint will transmit sound better than any kind of discontinuous joint. Sounds like you've some kind of crack pot theory going here.

No sleeves sorry I meant nails! Imagine the bars of a marimba, they  touch the surface below where they lay on the nodal lines(so when you hit them you get the maxinum vibration while they are "fixed")  so I thought that maybe if we fix the neck on the crossing of the nodal lines we get the 2 parts fixed in the place where the vibrations are minimum (node)and the rest of the surfaces are free to "move" and to let the vibrations flow between them

[Davide Sora]

I agree that a glued joint that fits snugly transmits vibrations better than any nailed one. In any case, how do you determine where the nodal points of the heel are? The comparison with the marimba is not adequate, because each key of the marimba is tuned on a single frequency, which would be the one of the heel to be able to establish any nodal points?

Just curious.

[Fade]

5 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

I agree that a glued joint that fits snugly transmits vibrations better than any nailed one. In any case, how do you determine where the nodal points of the heel are? The comparison with the marimba is not adequate, because each key of the marimba is tuned on a single frequency, which would be the one of the heel to be able to establish any nodal points?

Just curious.

The fundamental one! The marimba if is a good quality one,you have the fundamental and the 2and 3 armonicals tuned and it is fixed on the nodal lines of the fundamental frequency(around a quarter from the border). I rapresebted it, where there is A is an antinode for the fubdamebtal and where is N is a node.

So the nodal point are around a quarter of the lebght from the border if we are talking about a bar like marimba bar, and I tought that maybe in this case coyld work in the same way! 

[Fade]

4 minutes ago, Fade said:

The fundamental one! The marimba if is a good quality one,you have the fundamental and the 2and 3 armonicals tuned and it is fixed on the nodal lines of the fundamental frequency(around a quarter from the border). I rapresebted it, where there is A is an antinode for the fubdamebtal and where is N is a node.

So the nodal point are around a quarter of the lebght from the border if we are talking about a bar like marimba bar, and I tought that maybe in this case coyld work in the same way! 

What I rapresented is the vibrqtion of the fundamebtal frequency of the inner wood where the neck is fixed

So imagine the same on the surface of the neck

[Davide Sora]

1 hour ago, Fade said:

The fundamental one! The marimba if is a good quality one,you have the fundamental and the 2and 3 armonicals tuned and it is fixed on the nodal lines of the fundamental frequency(around a quarter from the border). I rapresebted it, where there is A is an antinode for the fubdamebtal and where is N is a node.

So the nodal point are around a quarter of the lebght from the border if we are talking about a bar like marimba bar, and I tought that maybe in this case coyld work in the same way! 

 

1 hour ago, Fade said:

What I rapresented is the vibrqtion of the fundamebtal frequency of the inner wood where the neck is fixed

So imagine the same on the surface of the neck

Sorry, I do not get it.

What would be the fundamental frequency of the violin? Are you comparing the whole violin to one key of the marimba? Why?

 

[Nick Allen]

I really don't think that the nail position will make any appreciable difference. Adding/taking away nails would, though. 

[Fade]

31 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

 

Sorry, I do not get it.

What would be the fundamental frequency of the violin? Are you comparing the whole violin to one key of the marimba? Why?

 

Sorry! Not the fundamental of the violin but the fundamental of the single piece that we want to fix...that is the frequency (mode)that complete a cycle from border to border of the piece and his nodes are at a quarter from the borders( of the lenght). Like for a marimba bar the lenght of the bar is the wave lenght of the fundamebtal frequency same here the sizes of the lenght of the neck give the fundamebtal mode (is not the lenght of the neck but the width that I consider) also a room has the 3 fundamental stationary waves that are given by the lenght ,the width and the altitude of the room.

 

[Andreas Preuss]

Sorry to be a bit blunt: that sounds like thought overkill. The whole area around the top block is the area with most accumulated mass and I doubt that there are any nodal lines. 

Ancient luthiers were very pragmatic people. So the nail had the  function to hold the neck not more. usually only one nail was used. Later in the 19th century you find some violin makers using a screw.

In any case the method is used for necks set on the surface of the rib.The neck is at the same time glued to the rib. 

If you think of sound transduction the better solution would be to make a guitar type neck where neck and top block are one piece. (Like Schönbach Dutzendarbeit) I doubt this will change anything.

 

[Wood Butcher]

Could the resonant frequency of the nails affect the nodal points?

[Davide Sora]

12 hours ago, Fade said:

 I think it could be better to fix it like this without glue to let the vibrations to be transmitted between the neck and the body of the violin cause I think glue stop the transmissions of vibration.

Why do you think glue stops vibrations?

[Fade]

I think it changes if you try to imagine 2 rectangular pieces with different dimensions and you fix them with glue all over the surface in my opinion the vibration is damped
because you don't let the antinodes of the fundamental frequency free to vibrate and transmit the vibration to the other piece.
But there s something else to... if we dig inside the wood and we stick the neck in" the hole" I think we don't have right phase of the transmission of the vibrations they could also be on opposite phase...I discovered it drawing the geometry of the curvature of the wood where the neck is fixed.

[Fade]

8 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Sorry to be a bit blunt: that sounds like thought overkill. The whole area around the top block is the area with most accumulated mass and I doubt that there are any nodal lines. 

Ancient luthiers were very pragmatic people. So the nail had the  function to hold the neck not more. usually only one nail was used. Later in the 19th century you find some violin makers using a screw.

In any case the method is used for necks set on the surface of the rib.The neck is at the same time glued to the rib. 

If you think of sound transduction the better solution would be to make a guitar type neck where neck and top block are one piece. (Like Schönbach Dutzendarbeit) I doubt this will 

Only one nail? Maybe was before 1700?

Sure they wanted to hold the neck mainly but I see this connection.

I think is important to fix it without dig a "hole" because of the phase of the transmission of the vibrations. Maybe just a little bit you can do it. For the geometry of the curvature of the inner block(where neck is fixed) I think we get an opposite phase of the transmission between neck and body of violin if we dig inside.

It's just my idea 

[Fade]

1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

Why do you think glue stops vibrations?

Because it damps the antinodes of the fundamental mode

[jacobsaunders]

2 minutes ago, Fade said:

Because it damps the antinodes of the fundamental mode

says who?

[Fade]

18 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

says who?

In my opinion! I don't think is important who says something but what is saied... i'm not saying that i'm sure about what I say but just that this is my idea

[Fade]

3 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Could the resonant frequency of the nails affect the nodal points?

I think everything affects the nodal lines/points

[Fade]

The antinode is, like on an oscillator, a point that moves and the node is the fixed point that allows to the antinode to move, so if I put a nail on the nodal point I fix it in the place where it needs to be fixed and I let the surface on the antinode free to move and to transmit.

[Davide Sora]

1 hour ago, Fade said:

I think it changes if you try to imagine 2 rectangular pieces with different dimensions and you fix them with glue all over the surface in my opinion the vibration is damped
because you don't let the antinodes of the fundamental frequency free to vibrate and transmit the vibration to the other piece.
But there s something else to... if we dig inside the wood and we stick the neck in" the hole" I think we don't have right phase of the transmission of the vibrations they could also be on opposite phase...I discovered it drawing the geometry of the curvature of the wood where the neck is fixed.

I respect your opinion and your discoveries, but I can't agree. If you glue two pieces together you get a single piece that will behave as such.  I don't think that if you glue all the keys of the Marimba together you would still be able to appreciate the behaviour of every single piece.

Setting the neck without a mortise might be perfectly fine if you like it that way, but I doubt that without glue it will hold for centuries. For a few days, perhaps...

[notsodeepblue]

14 hours ago, Fade said:

...

A is for antinode and N is for node.

What do you think about it?

...

Unless it is your intention to make only the neck and the upper block, and then strike the upper block with a little hammer, your schematisation and subsequent analysis of the violin / neck interface is far too simplistic:

How do you imagine the pattern of nodes / antinodes you have drawn will change when the upper block is itself glued to a violin body, and its free-ends are no longer free? And when the forcing causing the vibration is complex and continuous, rather than percussive? And what happens when the system is being forced at both the block end and the neck end, by a coupled source? 

Looking at a heavily idealised representation of a joint can often be useful for taks such as understanding structural performance (so perhaps choosing numbers of nails / size / nature of the joint), but the problem you are trying to "solve" is infinitely more nuanced and complex, and your analysis sheds little light on it in my opinion.

Good luck,

[jacobsaunders]

50 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

 

Setting the neck without a mortise might be perfectly fine if you like it that way, but I doubt that without glue it will hold for centuries. For a few days, perhaps...

In my front room, there is a violin by Johannes Albrecht, Krems, from the year 1807. The original undisturbed neck is simply glued onto the ribs without a nail. That has held perfectly for 213 years now!

[FiddleDoug]

1 hour ago, Fade said:

In my opinion! I don't think is important who says something but what is saied... i'm not saying that i'm sure about what I say but just that this is my idea

As I said in my first post, after you posted about "sleeves": "Sounds like you've some kind of crack pot theory going here. " .  Nothing valid here!

 

[Fade]

1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

I respect your opinion and your discoveries, but I can't agree. If you glue two pieces together you get a single piece that will behave as such.  I don't think that if you glue all the keys of the Marimba together you would still be able to appreciate the behaviour of every single piece.

Setting the neck without a mortise might be perfectly fine if you like it that way, but I doubt that without glue it will hold for centuries. For a few days, perhaps...

Of course not, for this reason they are fixed in the nodal point with the surface below (also for the xilophone the keys lay on the nodal lines)and for this I don't want to glue them because I want them to be able to "play their sound"

If you glue 2 keys together of the marimba you get a single one but if you fix it in 2 nodal places with nails maybe you can feel the difference if you hit one or the other one(maybe)

I think also that to fix the neck inside the wood diging a hole will create an opposite phase of the transmissions between neck and the body of the violin...you know that 2 parts connected would be good if they vibrate on the same phase to get an improving and gain of power...like for a kayak for 2 person if they pull at the same time(on phase) they get the maximum of the power.

[FiddleDoug]

This is sounding more and more like some kind of troll thing. OK, let's take a marimba (I do have experience with marimbas), and remove those discontinuous cords, and then nail all the bars down to the frame. I wonder how that would sound? Nothing valid or comparable here.