Is this old violin authentic?

[CiroMe]

So, I have a violin that was from my grandfather, and was in the attic after he passed away. He had it his whole life and I would like to know if its authentic, and how much is worth it. I installed fine tuners in A,D and G strings because I started two months ago playing

At the end are some pics of the bow that was in the case when I found it. The other bow is one I bought recently.

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by CiroMe
There was a missing photo and spelling mistakes

[Three13]

You  will want to find a competent,  honest professional to examine your violin in hand -  Stefano Scarampella is one of the most copied/faked makers of the last two hundred years.

The violin in the photos appears to be built on his model, and the wood choice and varnish look like they should, but there are many, many good fakes out there, some of which were being made around a hundred years ago.

[CiroMe]

15 minutes ago, Three13 said:

You  will want to find a competent,  honest professional to examine your violin in hand -  Stefano Scarampella is one of the most copied/faked makers of the last two hundred years.

The violin in the photos appears to be built on his model, and the wood choice and varnish look like they should, but there are many, many good fakes out there, some of which were being made around a hundred years ago.

Yes, im planning to take it to a well known luthier here in Buenos Aires when quarantine ends. I don't know if it helps but my grandfather came from Italy before the second world war. In the case were some old strings from an argentinean factory that doesn't exist anymore. 

Thanks for your help!

[Michael Appleman]

I agree with Three13. You should take this violin to a serious, professional expert. If you are in Italy or even somewhere in Europe, I would recommend contacting Eric Blot in Cremona.

[Wood Butcher]

37 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

I agree with Three13. You should take this violin to a serious, professional expert. If you are in Italy or even somewhere in Europe, I would recommend contacting Eric Blot in Cremona.

Any reason you think this is not just “the usual”?

[Blank face]

This violin has nothing to do with „the usual“ Markneukirchen/Schönbach work, neither construction, scroll, varnish nor other features, nor does it look like the common Scarampella fakes. I agree completely with Michael that it should be carefully examinated by a competent expert.

The bow is of the fancy Abeille wood type.

[Michael Appleman]

48 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Any reason you think this is not just “the usual”?

Just about everything, as BF said. Don't be fooled by the dirty brownish aspect. Look at the outline, the wood choice, the scroll shape and carving, the arching, the rib mitres, the f-holes, the wear patterns of the varnish on the back, the contours of the edgework...that front view of the pegbox...

[Wood Butcher]

Looks like I am way off the mark then.

[Herman West]

and if you take this instrument to a reputable luthier please ask him to remove those iron finetuners, as those are likely to damage the varnish, if not the wood.

[Three13]

This one even looks right for the date on the label to me.

[martin swan]

I agree with my learned colleagues - this looks quite promising and deserves an expert appraisal.

There are a couple of features that don't really fit with Stefano Scarampella for me, but the photos aren't very easy to "read" - in particular the stubbiness of the scroll and the depth of it as it travels into the volute. The varnish on the back also reminds me a lot of a Gaetano Gadda "Scarampella" we had a couple of years ago.

In your position the first thing I would do would be to send your photos to Eric Blot or Dmitry Gindin. Dmitry offers and online appraisal service : https://dmitrygindin.com/online-identification-and-valuation.php

If you do get a positive outcome, be very careful about what you do next. Never sell a good violin in a hurry.

[Jamie Varner]

Are you sure guys?

[PhilipKT]

A colleague of mine had a Scarampella cello,  But the attribution was always doubtful because it had a replaced scroll. Peter Horner looked at it closely and said that it was genuine. I asked him why he was confident, and he pointed out the inner bouts. He said that Scarampella Was a sloppy maker and if you look closely you can see the scratch marks from his scrapers. I think that’s how he described it. I have no eye for anything, but the varnish is very like on the cello and the inner bouts do look a bit messy. But again I don’t know anything.

edit: once the cello got to London, The attribution was downgraded, and the cello was sold as “property of a lady” but its sold for a great deal of money.

Edited May 8, 2020 by PhilipKT

[PhilipKT]

PS

the bow in the case is way too tight. If that is your new bow, you are tightening it way too much. If it’s the old bow, then of course the hair needs to be replaced

[martin swan]

4 hours ago, Jamie Varner said:

Are you sure guys?

No, just advising a course of action ...

But what's your take on the violin?

[Fossil Ledges]

Yup, fine tuners need to go, hopefully they haven't been on there too too long.

[David Burgess]

11 hours ago, martin swan said:

I agree with my learned colleagues - this looks quite promising and deserves an expert appraisal.

Agreed.

8 hours ago, Jamie Varner said:

Are you sure guys?

What is your acceptable margin for error?

[Three13]

4 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

What is your acceptable margin for error?

[CiroMe]

I don't know a lot about violins, but I know scarampella had an assistant called gadda right? That also made some violins with scarampella label. If this is the case, how much does this violins cost? And authentic scarampella? I have some strings from an old factory here in argentina that doesn't exist anymore (60 years ago). And my grandfather brought this violin from Italy around 1940.

Thanks for all your help!

(Sorry if my english isn't the best)

Edited May 8, 2020 by CiroMe

[Fossil Ledges]

What does that even mean, it's a violin. We have many many years of grim acceptance of otherwise unacceptably high margins of error.

[Michael Appleman]

6 hours ago, CiroMe said:

I don't know a lot about violins, but I know scarampella had an assistant called gadda right? That also made some violins with scarampella label. If this is the case, how much does this violins cost? And authentic scarampella? I have some strings from an old factory here in argentina that doesn't exist anymore (60 years ago). And my grandfather brought this violin from Italy around 1940.

Thanks for all your help!

(Sorry if my english isn't the best)

You're asking what seems like a simple question, but in fact it's pretty hard to give a simple answer. You can look up auction results on internet and go searching through violin dealer web-sites and get an idea yourself, but I'm sure you'll understand if no one wants to give you a value for your violin based on pictures on an internet forum. An authentic, certified, 1907 Scarampella in top condition would be worth quite a bit, easily over 150k$, while a non-identified Scarampella copy could be as low as 5-10k$. In between would be "identified" Scarampella copies by Gadda, Sgarabotto, the Guastallas et. al. so the range of possible values is huge. I hope the luthier in Buenos Aires will give you good advice. 

[Ratcliffiddles]

I agree with most of what has been said.

Scarampella copies are everywhere, and some recently certified examples are also not genuine...

With the OP's story and the appearance of the fiddle,  this one may turn out to be ok, but there aren't that many experts I would rely on to determine authenticity of these. 

[Three13]

5 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

I agree with most of what has been said.

Scarampella copies are everywhere, and some recently certified examples are also not genuine...

With the OP's story and the appearance of the fiddle,  this one may turn out to be ok, but there aren't that many experts I would rely on to determine authenticity of these. 

I imagine that dendrochronology has helped to identify a number of fake Scarampellas - was he using a fairly consistent wood source?

[StanY]

Is this the first time here in a while where the grandfather's fiddle in the attic might actually be what the label says it is?  Way cool.

[Michael Appleman]

It's not common, but there was a slightly beaten up Guillami a little while ago...