Sign in to follow this  
Andreas Preuss

A Violin by Simon Schödler?

Recommended Posts

Another instrument I am curious to know what it is. My first thoughts were Mittenwald or Fussen. 

I could partly decipher the handwritten inscription on the paper strip over the joint and one word seems to be the name 'Simon'. 

With some quick research in the books I found the name Simon Schödler in the Hamma book on German makers. To my own surprise the only pictured violin in the book looked not so different for f holes and outline. The head however had a different cut. 

But still, here I want to address this to the members of this forum and especially @jacobsaunders who knows much more on this than I do.

It doesn't have a label. 

The lower rib is one piece but there is no center marking nick, typical fori Mittenwald work. 

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Andreas,

I started a thread on Schödler some years ago

and illustrated a viola of his that I have in my front room.

The paper or parchment strips on the back joints were often snipped out of old books/documents, so I would on no account be distracted about some Simon being mentioned on that. I doubt that you have a Schödler, but judge for yourself

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

paper or parchment strips on the back joints

Were paper strips used in Mittenwald and Passau as well as Prague and Vienna, late 18 c?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, antero said:

Were paper strips used in Mittenwald and Passau as well as Prague and Vienna, late 18 c?

Yes, I have tried to work out who used paper and who partchment, without coming to a definate rule. You may add Regensburg/Nürnberg etc. Repairmen have spent much of the last 200 years taking them out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

Dear Andreas,

I started a thread on Schödler some years ago

and illustrated a viola of his that I have in my front room.

The paper or parchment strips on the back joints were often snipped out of old books/documents, so I would on no account be distracted about some Simon being mentioned on that. I doubt that you have a Schödler, but judge for yourself

Well, judging myself comes to the conclusion I don't know. 

The violin doesn't look like markneukirchen dutzenarbeit. 

Black varnish hints to Fussen (or eventually Mittenwald?)

It doesn't really look like Mittenwald to me but I don't know if Fussen Makers used paper strips on the joint.

The inscription doesn't look like cut out from a book because the inscription is nowhere cut in half or so. Further at the ends it is blank but it is impossible to take a photo of that. 

I was hoping that you have some better ideas for the maker of the violin. :(

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Still, would rather think Mittenwald or rather Füssen?

 

For Mittenald, the centre bout linings have to be let into the blocks with a point, and the scroll fluting has to go to the "bitter end" at the throat.

You shouldn't forget that violin making didn't exaust itself with Mittenwald, Vienna and Prague, but there were many towns, even villages with violin makers, particularly those with cathedrals or courts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

For Mittenald, the centre bout linings have to be let into the blocks with a point, and the scroll fluting has to go to the "bitter end" at the throat.

You shouldn't forget that violin making didn't exaust itself with Mittenwald, Vienna and Prague, but there were many towns, even villages with violin makers, particularly those with cathedrals or courts

To my understanding often but not always those makers came from one of the violin making centers like Mittenwald or Fussen and you still can detect the place of training on the construction and style of the violin.

So what can we positively say about the instrument? Before 1800? Somewhere north of the alps but not too far away?

Otherwise I go for 'ecole de l'est'

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ecole de l’est” is always a good bet if you daren’t say you don’t know.

The scroll has a slight Saxon look, whereas the body more Bavarian/Bohemian, do you think they belong together?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

ecole de l’est” is always a good bet if you daren’t say you don’t know.

The scroll has a slight Saxon look, whereas the body more Bavarian/Bohemian, do you think they belong together?

Yes, I think they belong together. Somehow I think this should be identifiable. (But maybe only wishful thinking from my side.) The clean purfling tells me that the maker had a good training. 

Besides, how many instruments of Schödler have you seen? 

To me the body would somehow go,but the for the head I would reject it. But with only one picture in b/w from Hammas book at hand it is anyway a kind of impossible to say yes or no.

Ecole des alpes de l'est;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

 But with only one picture in b/w from Hammas book at hand it is anyway a kind of impossible to say yes or no.

 

did you miss the ones of my viola that I linked too?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

did you miss the ones of my viola that I linked too?

 

Can't get a good resolution on my cell phone. Need to pull it up from my laptop tomorrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

 

I could partly decipher the handwritten inscription on the paper strip over the joint and one word seems to be the name 'Simon'. 

 

image.jpeg

One should perhaps point out that in Kurrentschrift, a capital “S” looks like a fish standing on his nose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Three13 said:

Thanks for posting this - is the arching that dramatically squared off looking in hand?

Yes, pretty squarish. Another feature which should hint to a maker. BUT....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Three13 said:

Thanks for posting this - is the arching that dramatically squared off looking in hand?

The “square” arching, as you put it is absolutely a ground to exclude any possibility whatsoever that Andreas’s fiddle could be a Schödler Passau, since the reference viola whose photos I have provided, has a full round comfy arching, quite the opposite. This unusual rather extreme arching would motivate me to search more in the Bohemian direction.

 

The word, which quite randomly appears on the centre joint strip, which will be from re-cycled paper from some cut up old church books or similar (paper was hand made back then and hence expensive, so they made parsimonious use of it) can’t be “Simon”, as I mentioned above. To visualise the capital “S” in German kurrentschrift that I characterised as a fish standing on his nose, one can do no worse that compare it with Schödlers entry in the death register from 27th June 1793 ( penultimate entry on this page) https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/passau/passau-stpaul/018/?pg=192

hl Simom Schode(sic)

Cur hoffürstl

kamer gov-

Tier(?)

hof geigen

und Lauten

macher

We also learn that he passed away in House No. 471, aged 65 and was catholic.

 

To summarise, anyone claiming that the fiddle might be a Schödler Passau, doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

The “square” arching, as you put it is absolutely a ground to exclude any possibility whatsoever that Andreas’s fiddle could be a Schödler Passau, since the reference viola whose photos I have provided, has a full round comfy arching, quite the opposite. This unusual rather extreme arching would motivate me to search more in the Bohemian direction.

 

The word, which quite randomly appears on the centre joint strip, which will be from re-cycled paper from some cut up old church books or similar (paper was hand made back then and hence expensive, so they made parsimonious use of it) can’t be “Simon”, as I mentioned above. To visualise the capital “S” in German kurrentschrift that I characterised as a fish standing on his nose, one can do no worse that compare it with Schödlers entry in the death register from 27th June 1793 ( penultimate entry on this page) https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/deutschland/passau/passau-stpaul/018/?pg=192

hl Simom Schode(sic)

Cur hoffürstl

kamer gov-

Tier(?)

hof geigen

und Lauten

macher

We also learn that he passed away in House No. 471, aged 65 and was catholic.

 

To summarise, anyone claiming that the fiddle might be a Schödler Passau, doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

 

Thanks, Jacob. 

I was waiting for a bit more substance on reasons to dismiss it. 

Have you ever seen a violin by Schödler? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

 

Have you ever seen a violin by Schödler? 

No, the principal violist in the Bulgarian Opera has a viola (went a long way down the Danube!) and the Kunsthistorischen have a Baryton.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Thanks, Jacob. 

I was waiting for a bit more substance on reasons to dismiss it. 

Have you ever seen a violin by Schödler? 

Good sleuthing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

No, the principal violist in the Bulgarian Opera has a viola (went a long way down the Danube!) and the Kunsthistorischen have a Baryton.

Just read the Church record. 

To me the 'Cur' looks like the missing 'ler'of Schodler. 

And then I read ' Kamerzor=tier' ( because the 'g' in Geigen looks different; must be a sort of title), the stroke above the m could mean that it is read actually 'mm'.

Then it continues to specify the work under the above title as 'Dann  Geigen und Lautenmacher'

Interesting though that you find both types of capital s from the same hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Just read the Church record. 

To me the 'Cur' looks like the missing 'ler'of Schodler. 

And then I read ' Kamerzor=tier' ( because the 'g' in Geigen looks different; must be a sort of title), the stroke above the m could mean that it is read actually 'mm'.

Then it continues to specify the work under the above title as 'Dann  Geigen und Lautenmacher'

Interesting though that you find both types of capital s from the same hand.

Working out these antique Kurrentschrift documents is always a bit like doing a crossword puzzle. I just wrote my immediate impression, and will have to study it with my Kurrent alphabet, but haven’t got around to it yet. I will correct any mistakes later, when I’ve studied it. In the meantime Blank face might have a go at it, because he can read this writing better than I can. Principally I was trying to show you what a capital “S” looks like.

There is always one sort of “S” when writing German (Kurrent) and a different one, more similar to what we are used to today when writing in Latin

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.