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deusAblutum

Less Stressful Way to Make a Center Seam?

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24 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I am really not trying to be rude but if someone is having trouble with this basic task I would suggest finding some one who knows how to do this and asking them to show you. Once you have a solid  bench and a properly set up plane with a sharp blade this job should take less than 1/2 an hour and there should be no "stress" involved. That includes flattening the inside sides of the wedges. If the actual planing of the joint takes more than a couple of passes then invariably something is wrong with the plane that must be addressed before continuing.

I appreciate what you are saying, however, I don't have access to anyone with wood working experience or the money for a lot of expensive tools. This isn't a profession for me and I am pursing this as hobby in my spare time. All I have learned about building violins is from the internet, forums, blogs and a few books because that is what I have access to. That being said for someone who has never touched a tool before who has gone on to build an instrument I think I've done pretty good so far. It may take me longer and I'm okay with that. I've never done this before. When I feel out of my depth or I get stuck, I consult these forums because that Is the resource I have. Forums like this are a wellspring of knowledge and I am grateful to all the people who contribute because I would't know half the things I know about building violins without them.

2 hours ago, Shelbow said:

Shooting board and and a decent jointer plane is what you need. I really like the Emmerich wooden jointer plane with the lignum vitae sole. 

Is there any reason you prefer a wooden plane?

3 hours ago, violins88 said:

In two weeks I will be trying the inverted plane method. I will let you know how it works for me.

Let me know how it goes. I've been thinking about this method myself.

4 hours ago, Edward Byler said:

I was thinking I'd forgot how to use my big  low anlge Veritas jack plane until I held a straight edge to the bottom and found it was quite badly not flat anymore. After having a flat bottom again (that's another story) all the above problems went away and joining is now fun again . Check that plane !

What is your reasoning fro using a low angle plane instead?

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10 hours ago, catnip said:

A picture of your shooting board would be helpful.  Here is mine.  I agree with all of the above but what is missing is... practice, practice, practice ..  Like anything else, ...  also stay with a method that works for you.  It is like sharpening, a lot of woodworkers keep changing their sharpening methods before they master the old method.  

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That's a good board, angles the blade. I have used something more basic than that. I have tried all methods without any problems. But my present inclination is  the shooting board as the closest to hassle free.

 

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5 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I am really not trying to be rude but if someone is having trouble with this basic task I would suggest finding some one who knows how to do this and asking them to show you. Once you have a solid  bench and a properly set up plane with a sharp blade this job should take less than 1/2 an hour and there should be no "stress" involved. That includes flattening the inside sides of the wedges. If the actual planing of the joint takes more than a couple of passes then invariably something is wrong with the plane that must be addressed before continuing.

Quite so, you also need to develop the physical skill to control the plane precisely, taking off very fine shavings where needed, and the analytic approach of assessing the fit and making sure every stroke of the plane has an objective. I second your advice of getting someone experienced to show you, it was a revelation for me even though I was experienced in cabinet making.

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13 hours ago, zdalton13 said:

The most stressful part of this whole process is trying to get the wedges initially square without taking off too much material. Too often the wedge is ever so slightly out of square or the surface becomes twisted as I plane it so I end up taking more and more material off to get it square. After I have squared the wedges, I can get them flat pretty quickly and easily. 

From this description, I'm not really sure what you mean by squaring the wedges. It seems you are not talking about flattening the upper and lower surfaces of each wedge before you start to joint them, but the edge of the joint itself.

If your jointed edge is constantly going out of square to the underside of the wedge, then something is wrong with your planing technique, assuming you have the blade set level. Your Stanley No. 5 is a good size for centre joints, and although you have said it isn't totally flat in another post, unless it has some horrific twist in the sole, this will not account for the edges going out of square, although it won't help either.

I think you need to practice on some scrap pieces to learn proper planing technique. How and where you apply pressure to the plane, will influence how it cuts. Even more importantly, where you stand in relation to the piece you are planing, can make a big difference to the outcome. I suspect the way you are standing isn't right, and inadvertently you are tilting the plane as you work. It might actually be easier for you to invert the plane in a vice, and push the wood over it instead.

I feel sympathy in the length of time it is taking. 3 1/2 hours for a joint is extremely excessive, and it seems you are taking so many passes with the plane that you are worried about having enough wood left. Most wedges are significantly oversize to begin with, so to have got to this situation, you really need to look at your technique before going further.

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8 hours ago, zdalton13 said:

 

Is there any reason you prefer a wooden plane?

 

I find the weight distribution to be more even and a bit easier to control over long pieces. Tend to be joining guitar front and backs more than anything. I find some of the large metal jointer planes to be just that bit too heavy and a bit jolty over large pieces.

Just my preference though.

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Someone here mentioned a solid work bench. This should be considered to be as important as any other tool you may have.

A flexing or rocking bench will make producing a good joint nigh on impossible.

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41 minutes ago, Pete Moss said:

Someone here mentioned a solid work bench. This should be considered to be as important as any other tool you may have.

A flexing or rocking bench will make producing a good joint nigh on impossible.

 

41 minutes ago, Pete Moss said:

Someone here mentioned a solid work bench. This should be considered to be as important as any other tool you may have.

A flexing or rocking bench will make producing a good joint nigh on impossible.

Yes!

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Not sure if this is any use at all.  This plane is pretty expensive and maybe not useful for this task but I remembered that they made it.  The up side is they have rather detailed plans for a shooting board on this page for free.  At 15" lomg it's kind of short and it says that it is primarily for doing miters and end grains.

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/products/no-51-shoot-board-plane-?path=joinery-planes&node=4169

 

DLB

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15 hours ago, zdalton13 said:

I appreciate what you are saying, however, I don't have access to anyone with wood working experience or the money for a lot of expensive tools.

 

Where do you live?

7 hours ago, Muswell said:

It's also easier to true the sole.

Possibly so, rather than spending 3.5 hours on each centerjoint.

However, there can be many other faults in a plane, from a frog which doesn't support the blade properly, to a blade so thin that it flexes enough to bite more aggressively in some spots than others.

I spent lots of bucks machining, and then many hours afterwards tweaking many sorts of planes, before I came around to the realization that it was more economical to just purchase the right tool in the first place, if ones time is worth anything.

Joe Grubaugh was the one who turned me on to Lie Nielsen joining planes. He claimed that a Lie Nielsen, out the box (aside from blade sharpening) produced better results than our highly-massaged Bailey planes, and he turned out to be right.

2 hours ago, Pete Moss said:

Someone here mentioned a solid work bench. This should be considered to be as important as any other tool you may have.

A flexing or rocking bench will make producing a good joint nigh on impossible.

We older folk like stuff that rocks in a soothing and regular way, like a rocking chair on our front porch. ;)

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This is basically the method I've been using, except I've been using a block plane to remove the round: 

 What I keep seeing is that the edge might be off square by a couple of degrees even when switching from side to side. Although Rob has been doing this for decades; so he makes it look super easy. I spent a day flattening this plane about a year ago. That it is this out of wack with how little I've used it has me concerned. I only spent 60 bucks on it and now I'm thinking maybe I should invest in a better one. I'm not a dullard and I get the importance of a proper setup. I just didn't think my plane would have turned into and upside down u after a few top joints.

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22 minutes ago, zdalton13 said:

This is basically the method I've been using, except I've been using a block plane to remove the round: 

 What I keep seeing is that the edge might be off square by a couple of degrees even when switching from side to side. Although Rob has been doing this for decades; so he makes it look super easy. I spent a day flattening this plane about a year ago. That it is this out of wack with how little I've used it has me concerned. I only spent 60 bucks on it and now I'm thinking maybe I should invest in a better one. I'm not a dullard and I get the importance of a proper setup. I just didn't think my plane would have turned into and upside down u after a few top joints.

That's basically the method I described in another thread. The Chinese planes he uses used to be really good value. Now they're pushing Lie Nielsen prices. Not saying they aren't still good value. Just not screaming bargains anymore. 

It's strange that your plane has distorted so much with hardly any use. If it's as bad as you describe, you'll really be struggling to make a good join. If you're on a tight budget maybe there's a reliable dealer of used/reconditioned planes in your neck of the woods? Ray Iles in the UK is very good, and probably ships anywhere. 

Having the edges slightly off square isn't usually a killer, by the way. But there must be no twist.

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1 minute ago, JohnCockburn said:

That's basically the method I described in another thread. The Chinese planes he uses used to be really good value. Now they're pushing Lie Nielsen prices. Not saying they aren't still good value. Just not screaming bargains anymore. 

It's strange that your plane has distorted so much with hardly any use. If it's as bad as you describe, you'll really be struggling to make a good join. If you're on a tight budget maybe there's a reliable dealer of used/reconditioned planes in your neck of the woods? Ray Iles in the UK is very good, and probably ships anywhere. 

Having the edges slightly off square isn't usually a killer, by the way. But there must be no twist.

Ah! I never even thought about reconditioned planes! I'll definitely do some googling on that.

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