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Evan Smith

PM-V11 Knifes

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AS far as I can see, PM-V11 is a proprietary steel number that Veritas came up with.  They did not invent this steel---rather, they went to a specialty steel manufacturer of power metallurgy steel and purchased an already developed steel for this type of application.  If Veritas published the composition, there would be nothing stopping you from finding the steel manufacturer and purchasing your own material.  

This steel is going to be complicated to heat treat---you will need an electric/programable oven if you want to do it for yourself.  I think this is what Evan Smith should do rather than purchase the already hardened blades.

If Evan does not know where the steel comes from, it is easy to send a sample to a laboratory that will analyze and give you a composition.  Last time I did it, it did not cost very much.  That way, Evan can work with annealed material which will make his work a lot easier.

regards

Mike D

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29 minutes ago, Mike_Danielson said:

AS far as I can see, PM-V11 is a proprietary steel number that Veritas came up with.  They did not invent this steel---rather, they went to a specialty steel manufacturer of power metallurgy steel and purchased an already developed steel for this type of application.  If Veritas published the composition, there would be nothing stopping you from finding the steel manufacturer and purchasing your own material.  

This steel is going to be complicated to heat treat---you will need an electric/programable oven if you want to do it for yourself.  I think this is what Evan Smith should do rather than purchase the already hardened blades.

If Evan does not know where the steel comes from, it is easy to send a sample to a laboratory that will analyze and give you a composition.  Last time I did it, it did not cost very much.  That way, Evan can work with annealed material which will make his work a lot easier.

regards

Mike D

 

Vacuum furnace only. Long soaking time at around 1000C. Very critical temps on hardening and tempering. Will be costly to diy.

Also, the manuf of this specific steel will not cut under 8mm thickness.

 

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1 hour ago, Andreas Preuss said:

@Evan Smith

why does veritas not sell knife blades? I am tempted to ask them if they can cut up blades for me. 

Looks very interesting. 

My intuition tells me that PM V11 would not be suitable as knife blade material. I don't think it would lend itself to being formed into thin cross section, bendy lengths.

 

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Crucible Steel has a good website and they have specifications for heat treating their PM steels and other tool steels. I used to have their data in a nice book form which I gave to a budding blacksmith.  Its all available on the web site for those needing heat treat recipes. Most PM steels that would be good for cutting take a temperature over 2000 Deg F. to austenize the steel. This takes some expensive treatmen and should be done only by a professional HT facility, and many will not be able to go to the required temperatures, and it has to be held at that temperature for at least one hour.  The quench is dangerous; putting yellow hot steel into oil. I am sure that they Crucible have a sales dept and would suggest steel PM grades to use for knives and possibly sell useful blank sizes. They would sell pre-heat treated steel which could be shaped and then finished grinding/sharpening after heat treat. They might even be the supplier for Veritas. Carpenter Co. is another big PM supplier. You would then have to find a local HT facility to do it for you. They might be able to put it in a bigger load they are processing at the same time to keep the cost down. Calling Veritas and asking them for finished knife blankes of their steel might be a better way to go. The value of PM steel is the uniformity of structure throughout the steel. PM steel is not formed by solidification of molten steel and does not have the segregation of materials resulting from the solidification process. Steel is reduced in size by the repeated forging process which helps to eliminate segregation of elements and structure. The blades made of steel folded over and over again eliminate this. Well , PM does it from the get go; resulting in an excellent steel. Power metal from the different elements to be in the final steel are mixed and in a large can are pressed together under incredible pressure. This is called sintering. Then the sintered block, mechanically welded together, is placed in high temperature well above 2000 deg F and the metal fully welds together and the elements go into solution and move (diffuse) around in the solid metal. The result is a very fine grained steel with great uniformity and structure throughout. Crucible may make their PM materials and sell to the knife market. I may try to call them and see what I can find out. Normaltool steels come in various grades: O1, A2, S7 and H the W series. A series are quenched in air, the slowest of quenches, air cool; O series are quenched in oil, W series need a fast quench and are put in water, the S series are shock resistant steels and the H series are high temperature steel such as used in die casting. The number after the letter refers to different grades in the series, Metallurgy 101.

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1 hour ago, Dennis J said:

My intuition tells me that PM V11 would not be suitable as knife blade material. I don't think it would lend itself to being formed into thin cross section, bendy lengths.

 

Dennis,

I can put you in touch with someone in Seattle who can’t get enough of my PM-X blades. PM me if interested.

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Violins88 when will you have more PM-X blades to send out? I would love to try one instead of cutting up my PMV-11 plane blade. 
 

Jesse

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9 hours ago, JPherson said:

Violins88 when will you have more PM-X blades to send out? I would love to try one instead of cutting up my PMV-11 plane blade. 
 

Jesse

That will be December 2022. Can you wait?

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https://knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/

The above website rates the steels.  It is likely that there have been further improvements in steel chemistry since Veritas started supplying their alloy.  I would look for an alloy that has good edge retention with ease of sharpening.

So, if you want to experiment, there are knifemakers that will sell the raw materials in various thicknesses--thus, you do not need to interact with the specialty steel companies or the mill that rolls the material into the desired thickness.

As far as a vacuum oven is concerned, knifemakers wrap the steel piece in stainless steel foil to protect it from oxygen--thus, you do not need a vacuum over.  But you will  need an electric oven with electronic control because these steels need special attention to heat treatment.

regards

Mike D

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On 4/24/2020 at 5:34 AM, violins88 said:

@davidburgess, and mussel

what can I send you from New Zealand?

How well do postage stamps stick to sheep?  ;)

6 hours ago, violins88 said:

That will be December 2022. Can you wait?

Dude, don't you think that moving to the opposite side of the world was a rather extreme form of "social distancing"? :o:P

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46 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

How well do postage stamps stick to sheep?  ;)

Dude, don't you think that moving to the opposite side of the world was a rather extreme form of "social distancing"? :o:P

LOL. 

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1 hour ago, Mike_Danielson said:

https://knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/

The above website rates the steels.  It is likely that there have been further improvements in steel chemistry since Veritas started supplying their alloy.  I would look for an alloy that has good edge retention with ease of sharpening.

So, if you want to experiment, there are knifemakers that will sell the raw materials in various thicknesses--thus, you do not need to interact with the specialty steel companies or the mill that rolls the material into the desired thickness.

As far as a vacuum oven is concerned, knifemakers wrap the steel piece in stainless steel foil to protect it from oxygen--thus, you do not need a vacuum over.  But you will  need an electric oven with electronic control because these steels need special attention to heat treatment.

regards

Mike D

Mike,

l found out early on that violin makers want great sharpness, long edge holding, but ease of resharpening.. It seems that ease of resharpening is not so important for the sport knife people.

Colin Gallahue helped me understand what violinmakers want.

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21 hours ago, Mike_Danielson said:

https://knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/

The above website rates the steels.  It is likely that there have been further improvements in steel chemistry since Veritas started supplying their alloy.  I would look for an alloy that has good edge retention with ease of sharpening.

So, if you want to experiment, there are knifemakers that will sell the raw materials in various thicknesses--thus, you do not need to interact with the specialty steel companies or the mill that rolls the material into the desired thickness.

As far as a vacuum oven is concerned, knifemakers wrap the steel piece in stainless steel foil to protect it from oxygen--thus, you do not need a vacuum over.  But you will  need an electric oven with electronic control because these steels need special attention to heat treatment.

regards

Mike D

We used to use the stainless foil mentioned. It works quite good. Add some brown paper towel material inside the foil wrap. This burns when temperature is reached and exhausts the oxygen inside the foil. Be very careful when working with the foil. It is very thin and sharp.

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I recently bought a Veritas apron plane with a PM-V11 blade....The first use was re shooting a very gritty ebony cello fingerboard. The performance was incredible. I did not need to resharpen at all. This is a job that really kills a blade. The blade continued to impress to the extent that it would seem a no brainer to upgrade all kit to Veritas PM-v11

On the other hand I have an expensive  Kershaw Pocket knife with PM154......piece of cfrap...no where near as good as proper carbon steel

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Not so much now, but a few years ago you could buy cutting tools and bits made of high grades of steel from china. They were terrible; they didn't heat treat half the stuff or did a very poor job doing so. The heat treatment which includes a proper temper probably has a greater influence on the finished product than the material it is made from. Melvin, that possibly might explain why your knife is poor.

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