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curious1

Turning peg collars

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Hi! I have some very nice boxwood pegs with damaged ebony collars that I would like to replace. How difficult is it to turn them and where can I find out how to do it?

Can I turn the new collars off the pegs and then just slide them on or must they be turned in place?

26FE0D24-CAD6-4623-9AD5-E0F8E1AC838B.jpeg.327e8c0a3486c3e838c905d2b922dddc.jpeg

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Original W.E. Hill pegs had the collar set into a groove on the shaft. This meant it could not come loose, and later slide down the shank. They turned the collars from ebony, split them, and then glued it together in place.

Most other pegs just seem to have a taper to the head, or a very small flat area just before the head, which is why they always work loose.

Turning ebony can be difficult, and I would suggest making a scraper to ensure uniform bead size. The tough bit is boring them out and then parting it off, but certainly it's possible.

It is also possible to repair the existing collars on the pegs, replacing missing bits, then shape it in by hand. This is a proper faff and takes ages, but worth doing with nice pegs, or those with some historical value.

 

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I'll suggest simply making them out of Delrin (acetal resin).  You can get good detail in that material easily.  Make the I.D slightly undersize and press them on.  It's also a heck of a lot easier to turn than ebony.  If you -really- want them to be made of wood, get some blackwood.  It's easier to turn than ebony (not nearly as brittle) and looks good.

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If you must make the rings from wood:

The procedure I would suggest would be to first turn a well oversized dowel in a lathe. Then drill the appropriate inner diameter, also in the lathe. Then turn the oversized OD down into the ring size and shape you will need. Cut that ring off (also in the lathe), and then move on to the next ring.

If you want to make an appropriate "form tool", you can form the ring and cut it off in one step, taking maybe ten seconds per ring. The same can be done with Delrin, except that the dowel won't need to be as oversized to survive drilling the hole down the center.

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8 hours ago, curious1 said:

Hi! I have some very nice boxwood pegs with damaged ebony collars that I would like to replace. How difficult is it to turn them and where can I find out how to do it?

Can I turn the new collars off the pegs and then just slide them on or must they be turned in place?

26FE0D24-CAD6-4623-9AD5-E0F8E1AC838B.jpeg.327e8c0a3486c3e838c905d2b922dddc.jpeg

I'd be tempted to repair the original collars in situ using cyanoacrylate and ebony dust

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You don't really need to do any of the turning on a hollow tube and then cut off. 

Having done quite a bit of turning, I would first center bore an ebony blank with the appropriate diameter hole for the peg. 

Then you can Chuck the ebony up between centers, using you standard live center and a spur drive at the head. Then, turn the OD to a little oversized. 

Now, you can cut off slices of this new tube with a model saw and some kind of mini miter box, leaving a lil bit on the ends, just in case there is any blowout there. 

Now make an appropriately sized mandrel that has a very slight taper to hold the ring, and turn the detail. 

Clean the ends with some sandpaper on a flare surface. 

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I would bore an appropriate sized piece of ebony, then using centers,,, turn the outside diameter oversize,,

cut off the rings, glue them onto the pegs then turn them on the pegs to finish them.

I would bow in the general direction and call them SIR,, to anyone doing it differently for all the extra work,,, it would be,,

unless you did this,,,,

4 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

I'd be tempted to repair the original collars in situ using cyanoacrylate and ebony dust

or this,,

 

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1 hour ago, Evan Smith said:

I would bore an appropriate sized piece of ebony, then using centers,,, turn the outside diameter oversize,,

cut off the rings, glue them onto the pegs then turn them on the pegs to finish them.

I would bow in the general direction and call them SIR,, to anyone doing it differently for all the extra work,,, it would be,,

unless you did this,,,,

or this,,

 

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. 
this method seems the most sensible and workmanlike. 

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1 hour ago, curious1 said:

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. 
this method seems the most sensible and workmanlike. 

This will only work if you can perfectly center the pegs on the lathe. 

I'd make a receiver on either end that's centered. One for the tapered end, and one for the nib. 

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@MeyerFittings

It will be interesting to see what Eric has to say about this.

If you'd like to save yourself some grief, use blackwood.

If you'd like to save yourself a lot of grief, use Delrin.  It's easier to turn, very forgiving and looks fine for the small collars you're wanting to make.
Looking at the suggestions above, it's clear that everyone is suggesting methods that are based on what tools they have, or have used and are comfortable with, which I suppose is usually the case.  You'll have to do the same.  Yes, you can turn the collars and then slide them onto the pegs.  This is easiest with Delrin as you can make the I.D. slightly smaller than the O.D. of the end of the peg shank and press them into place.  Done well, you'll not even need glue.  There are pitfalls to all of the suggestions above.  Figure out which method seems to make the most sense to you and for the tools and experience level available.

Good Luck!

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Replacing busted up collars is 4 times a pain in the ass. Very few pegs are monitarily worth the effort. If all of the collars are in similar condition to the one pictured, I would do the fill routine. I have wooden collets that I have made that have the outer tape rin a match to my lathe head and an  inner one reamed out to a peg taper to center the peg. If you have a three jaw chuck you can center the peg shaft at the  collar and gum up a needle file to level the fill.

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"Tuning peg collars"

Peg collars should be tuned to produce binaural beats in the theta (4 to 8 Hz) range, since these are linked to reduced anxiety,  as well as meditative and creative states. ;)

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This is thickened black ca glue, right out of the tube. If I had your problem I'd consider using it. Life is short, time is valuable.....

IMG_1354.JPG

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7 hours ago, MeyerFittings said:

Replacing busted up collars is 4 times a pain in the ass. Very few pegs are monitarily worth the effort. If all of the collars are in similar condition to the one pictured, I would do the fill routine. I have wooden collets that I have made that have the outer tape rin a match to my lathe head and an  inner one reamed out to a peg taper to center the peg. If you have a three jaw chuck you can center the peg shaft at the  collar and gum up a needle file to level the fill.

I had imagined to chuck up the peg like this: the shaft can go in a three jaw chuck at the live end and I would make a small block off wood with a hole drilled in it slightly smaller than the pip on the head of the peg. The pip self centers in the hole on one side and the dead center goes in the hole on the other side.

112E871E-67CB-477F-9F48-CC42320F9CFC.jpeg.842bd3d356d39e8b2a237d4ecd388af9.jpeg
 

I’m pretty sure I could finish off the details of the collar if it was in the form of a plain ring glued in place on the peg.

the pegs are very beautifully turned from fabulous wood so I don’t think I can bring myself to fix them w krazy glue (there are a couple worse than the one pictured).

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Another possible way to fixture the peg for turning an attached collar: Making a quick-and-dirty tapered collet to hold the shaft.

This could also be done with a conventional three-jaw chuck (starting with a dowel rather than a rectangular piece of wood), but wouldn't give the adjustability for centering that the independent-jaw chuck offers. Some tweaking could be done by inserting paper shims between the jaws and the collet though.

 

Scan333.jpg

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8 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Another possible way to fixture the peg for turning an attached collar: Making a quick-and-dirty tapered collet to hold the shaft.

This could also be done with a conventional three-jaw chuck (starting with a dowel rather than a rectangular piece of wood), but wouldn't give the adjustability for centering of the independent-jaw chuck.

 

Scan333.jpg

This is a good solution. Simple, quick and easy to get the collar turned concentric with the shaft.

Many assume that the pips on the head are centred, but this isn't always the case.

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Yes, as David B. And Eric suggested, making a collet to hold the shaft is the right way to go.  As Dave S. pointed out, the pips are often not centered and trying to hold the peg at both ends is inviting disaster unless you're using traditional between center methods, which you're not if there is a 3 jaw chuck involved.  There is no need to hold it at that end if the lathe you're using is large enough to hold a collet/adapter that will hold the peg shaft.

So..., what sort of lathe are you using, what size is the through hole on the chuck and the headstock spindle and does it have a collet system?  If it has a collet system, what is the capacity of your largest collet?  

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On April 22, 2020 at 9:49 AM, Mark Norfleet said:

@MeyerFittings

It will be interesting to see what Eric has to say about this.

If you'd like to save yourself some grief, use blackwood.

If you'd like to save yourself a lot of grief, use Delrin.  It's easier to turn, very forgiving and looks fine for the small collars you're wanting to make.
Looking at the suggestions above, it's clear that everyone is suggesting methods that are based on what tools they have, or have used and are comfortable with, which I suppose is usually the case.  You'll have to do the same.  Yes, you can turn the collars and then slide them onto the pegs.  This is easiest with Delrin as you can make the I.D. slightly smaller than the O.D. of the end of the peg shank and press them into place.  Done well, you'll not even need glue.  There are pitfalls to all of the suggestions above.  Figure out which method seems to make the most sense to you and for the tools and experience level available.

Good Luck!

Mark I am guessing the delrin would eventually harden and split. No evidence just basic distrust of plastic.

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10 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Mark I am guessing the delrin would eventually harden and split. No evidence just basic distrust of plastic.

I’m sure they will eventually.

these are more than 30 years old and I just tried to break them with my fingers and couldn’t.  I’m pretty sure I’d have broken ones of ebony.

2B37CFBD-8696-4577-94B3-3FE3A77083D5.jpeg

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14 minutes ago, Mark Norfleet said:

I’m sure they will eventually.

these are more than 30 years old and I just tried to break them with my fingers and couldn’t.  I’m pretty sure I’d have broken ones of ebony.

2B37CFBD-8696-4577-94B3-3FE3A77083D5.jpeg

Look nice and point taken.

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On 4/23/2020 at 10:44 AM, nathan slobodkin said:

Mark I am guessing the delrin would eventually harden and split. No evidence just basic distrust of plastic.

Delrin holds up quite well, if it isn't severely overstretched when pushing onto a tapered peg. In cases where they were severely overstretched, they could split in 0-30 years.

At one time, I was highly involved in peg-making. We used Delrin for the collars and pips. Norfleet, Pasewicz and Holmes also had various levels of involvement.

If I remember correctly, our "time studies" showed that we eventually got it down to a total of about 4 minutes to make a complete peg, including the rings and pips (but minus staining and sealing) to produce a pretty good copy of the highly undercut boxwood Hill pegs.

We hired a "good-ol'-boy" from a small town, named Bob, to do most of the production work after everything was set up, and he was more than happy to stand at the lathe all day just cranking out pegs. Some of his other interests included participating in demolition derby's. 

I will always admire Bob, and no, I am not in any way being facetious about that.

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