Belly arching around f holes


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21 minutes ago, Peter K-G said:

I posted long time ago how old Cremonese f-holes are mostly parallel to the ribs or if you like to the, top. This is how it is and the secret to Cremonese arching.

Except when they are not.

Granted, some overly-simplistic "rules of thumb" can be a comfort zone, compared to taking on the much larger set of variables.

 

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1 hour ago, Evan Smith said:

Thanks Don, these are great!

Thx!

These are coming out not as finely detailed as my iPhone is showing, I don't know why.

It is a significant difference in the level of detail. 

I'm transferring them directly from my iPhone via the youtube app, (free) any one know why it is so? And how I can get them on here better? 

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Arching has an underlying geometry which extends from the widest part of the upper bouts to the widest part of the lower bouts, blending into the edge margins of the plates. That geometry is flexible and can be varied to a degree to produce a wider or narrower recurve at the corner areas. That geometry, and arching guides made to suit it, are the only way to handle arching in a coherent, repeatable, logical way.

 

 

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Except when they are not.

Granted, some overly-simplistic "rules of thumb" can be a comfort zone, compared to taking on the much larger set of variables.

 

Exactly. I have heard that parralel FFs thing more often than I have seen it.

As regards A. Guarneri (whose instruments I love by the way) I think that many of these makers were guided more by the tools they owned and the quirks of their working process than self conscious final adjustments.  In Andrea's case it looks to me as if he habitually ran a smallish gouge right down the center of the corners and then brought the arch down to that level and called it good.

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2 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Exactly. I have heard that parralel FFs thing more often than I have seen it.

Same. Most Cremonese violins that I have seen from the side don't show parallel fs. 

The arching I. That area would have to be quite collapsed to have parallel fs. 

I think perhaps if the fs are very slanted I relation to one another one may then see this. 

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8 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Exactly. I have heard that parralel FFs thing more often than I have seen it.

Same here.

Certainly closer to being parallel than in other high arched violins, but that's all. I think that to support certain statements we should refer to specific violins without generalizing.

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19 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

Hi Don,

That's a great video, those corners are really cleared out, do you have the bass side also?

Suppose you're doin good?

Me and the fam are well thx. I have the bass side and others. Sometimes there was not anything to reflect off of the arches but some glimpses in there.

 

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19 hours ago, DonLeister said:

 

These are coming out not as finely detailed as my iPhone is showing, I don't know why.

It is a significant difference in the level of detail. 

I'm transferring them directly from my iPhone via the youtube app, (free) any one know why it is so? And how I can get them on here better? 

They are coming out as low as 144p,,,if "we" click on the settings it can be viewed at 480p ,, much clearer,  one of them goes to 1080 HD,, the "1711 Strad Metropolitan museum"

I don't think  your downloads are the problem, it is the settings on playback.

I use a Giant HD screen for my computer,, and they look good.

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On 4/7/2020 at 3:02 PM, Davide Sora said:

I think blending the area just inside upper corners is the most difficult task in  arching making, if you tell a student to be careful not to dig too much he will leave too much wood and if you tell him not to leave too full he will dig too deep in this area:)

However, I agree with Evan and I prefer to make this area more flexible due to the intrinsic stiffness of the arch just above the F holes and the proximity to the per se very stiff corner blocks area.

 (... )

Taking the thread back a bit, the above description is about shape of the externals here.

In general, how thin are modern makers shaping the tops here for this style? It's occurred to me that I have not measure this area, though i assumed this area was considerably thinned, despite some instruments with thick arches within the island.  Also I have played older copies that have relatively thin edges and the area between the arch and upper corner ( which are more blunt then pointed ) to be sonically thin when gently rubbed with the thumbs. Are they less than  2.0mm?

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43 minutes ago, GoPractice said:

Taking the thread back a bit, the above description is about shape of the externals here.

In general, how thin are modern makers shaping the tops here for this style? It's occurred to me that I have not measure this area, though i assumed this area was considerably thinned, despite some instruments with thick arches within the island.  Also I have played older copies that have relatively thin edges and the area between the arch and upper corner ( which are more blunt then pointed ) to be sonically thin when gently rubbed with the thumbs. Are they less than  2.0mm?

I hope not, if there was a thickness of 2 mm near the upper corners, the connection with the edge would be problematic and would result in a pronounced step, which is never found in ancient instruments and that in any case it would not be good in my opinion. I think this would also be a good reason not to leave this area too full externally, to obtain a good inside blending without steps towards the edge allowing better elasticity. Not sure I understand your thumbs technique...

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Thank you for your response.

My thumbs have coarse skin. If I am given the luxury of touching the surface of an instrument, i will gently go over the surface the with my hands as they sometimes feel irregularities my eyes can not see. Asymmetry or sound post distortions can be felt quickly. 

The coarseness of the skin of the thumbs ( my thumbs anyway ) produces the highest frequency sound barely touching the surface. The thumb has a bit more depth in sound then the other fingers. It is often possible to hear how the graduations change from the thinnest parts to the island. I can confirm the amount of changes with a Hacklinger. It is often possible to hear where the bass bar starts and ends and occasionally a series of cleats or a patch. 

I was shown this rubbing as a young child at a high-end shop in LA ( among other techniques that other shop owners used  ) and heard what was happening. Later, taking instruments apart, it was a guessing- game  what was actually measured inside.  

This helps me to scan through instruments quickly, if there are many like at a bulk auction, or when I have the opportunity to play a more important maker. I do not have a great visual memory of instruments compared to the greats, though my tonal memory is strangely more reliable of interesting instruments. And as i grow older, i have to use words to remember how instruments sound rather than, words + how it makes me feel. This tactile approach allows for some details to be remembered that i otherwise would have forgotten.   

The varnish type seems to matter as i can not hear many changes on some instruments. 

This particular instrument was thinned so much between the corners and the arch that it sounded similar to the thinnest parts of the top near the neck block. I had no baseline, but assume that the top was thinned to at least 2.5mm as it sounded "paper thin." 

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Thanks for the clarification, in fact stroking with the fingers is very sensitive if it is trained and can give us useful information. Certainly better than some that I see press the plates with the risk of opening cracks, I hope you don't:)

However 2,5 mm may be too thin but also not, it depends on the wood, many Guarneri and Stradivari are up to this thickness or even less in some areas

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