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keyboardclass

Redesigning the neck

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11 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

Wow!  I'll look into all that.  The healthiest pinch is called the terminal pinch.  It's what I'm trying to utilise.

It's what classical guitarists use because, apart from anything else, it is the way to get fingers to work perpendicular to the fingerboard, which is essential for almost everything.

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I also play classical guitar.  For bar chords I find I have to hyper-extend the thumb so all's not so healthy there.   It's a pressure thing.

With violin you don't want the distal joint perpendicular as that gives you intonation problems (your semitones are too sharp).  My last teacher sorted that for me.

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11 hours ago, Rue said:

 They will accommodate the physical parameters of that student.

To be clear they will accommodate the physical parameters of that student to their method.  And this thread certainly has gone OT.  Not my fault!

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7 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Yes, you are correct.  

I'm searching for a politically correct way of saying many violin makers don't give a shit about the player's health.

Not true! spacer.png

Most of us don't use lead or mercury in varnish any more like Strad did. :lol:

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31 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Not true! spacer.png

Most of us don't use lead or mercury in varnish any more like Strad did. :lol:

And that’s to protect the maker, not just the player.

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18 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

It's how Ole Bull reportedly played.  It has its advantages.

I'd love to see the reference on that! Can you please kindly provide it for us? It could be enlightening.

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It's from Paganini's Secret at Last (1946) by S.L. Salzedo.  I've not searched out the Wassmann book.   Salzedo says there are pictures in Sarah Bull Ole Bull (1886) by a Dr Crosby.  I don't pancake though!

olebull 001.jpg

olebull 002.jpg

olebull.jpg

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:wacko::blink::mellow:

...well, moving forward (or backwards) here is Yehudi! If you can't trust him...^_^

If you don't want to watch the whole thing, start at 4'30" (and more good views starting at 14'05").

 

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In photos, including the one above, I notice he plays with a collapsed wrist, supporting the violin on the ball of his thumb, which would seem to negate the technical anatomical advantage, so I ask do you as well? If not, I don't think it's fair calling him as a mode for your style. I bet he would not choose to play that way now, given modern equipment.

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As a teacher very often we see problemswith students trying to grab the neck and introducing stress into their left hand.  Sometimes we have them play without their thumb at all if the problem gets severe.  This is done as an exercise, not as a permanent situation.

Not wanting to blow my own horn at all because I am basicly a nothing but this is as per my teachers who were students of:

Ivan Galamian

Dorothy Delay

William Primose

Joseph Gingold

Shinichi Suzuki

David Holland

Francis Bundra

Angel Reyes

Patricia McCarty

I was never good enough to study with them directly but I was lucky to have their students (the last four I did study with)

The thing to be kept in mind is that any tension or stress in the basic position of either hand is a problem and can result in real injury.  Wrists and shoulders are particularly vulnerable.  There will be slight differences for different body types and and different abilities and disabilities .

Again I do not claim to be anything other than a small town teacher but I mentioned those teachers to give a reference for my thoughts.

One fun thing to do that is not that hard is you can trace your student-teacher family tree  For me it crosses back and forth between violin and viola but it's fun.

Mr. Galamian's book on violin technique is quite useful and is pretty much the basis for most modern violin position for both hands 

.https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Violin-Playing-Teaching-Galamian/dp/0962141631

 

As an example the former concertmaster of the Boston Symphony Mr. Silverstein had problems with his right thumb position on the bow and he played with his thumb under the frog like we teach small children at first.  He felt it helped with the tension in his hand.

 

You will see variation in his students to compensate for their hand and body types (Mr. Perlman for instance)

 

Best to all,

Dwight

 

DLB

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6 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

In photos, including the one above, I notice he plays with a collapsed wrist, supporting the violin on the ball of his thumb, which would seem to negate the technical anatomical advantage, so I ask do you as well? If not, I don't think it's fair calling him as a mode for your style. I bet he would not choose to play that way now, given modern equipment.

That's pancaking, and I don't.  Yes Dwight, I have Galamian too.

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BTW I have found the violin makers I have worked with to commission instruments have all been very much interested in the playability of their violins and violas.  They went to a lot of trouble to make their instruments comfortable and useful for me.  I have only comissioned one bow and Gilles Nehr was very much interested in what worked for me.  The ergonomics of the violin and viola are pretty weird and we do not play them in the way they were originally designed to be sure.

 

DLB

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The grasping between the root of the index finger and thumb goes all the way back to the beginning.  Notice Menuhin doesn't.  One reference I have says don't do it once you get intermediate/advanced.

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The only definition of a "correct" left hand position I know of is one that allows the greatest relaxation of the hand (no gripping) and affords the player maximum extension (on violin, fingered octaves and tenths). One of the finest and *most relaxed* players with whom I've played chamber music (a former concertmaster of Juilliard and a floor demonstrator for Morel) played with what I call a hitchhiker's thumb: violin neck resting upon the crook of the hand rather than being supported by the thumb, as below.

The Ravel Thumb - Piano World Piano & Digital Piano Forums

 

Rather different than Menuhin, I would say, but it certainly works for Perlman and ASM--and look at the freedom of that hand.Anne-Sophie Mutter breaks silence on filming incident, saying 'I ...

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3 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

The grasping between the root of the index finger and thumb goes all the way back to the beginning.  Notice Menuhin doesn't.  One reference I have says don't do it once you get intermediate/advanced.

I'd need to look at some videos of Paganini playing to know. ;)

However Paganini or Ole Bull may or may not have been all that good, compared to the best of modern players.

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