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Trenchworker

Sterilizing violins

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It is good to see the original paper as cruise ships (apart from serving no useful purpose and having horrible carbon foot prints) are excellent incubators of disease as outlined. The relevant part of the paper says viral

RNA was recovered. It does not say that infective material was recovered. Rue's Analogy about dead murderers is a good one.

I am definitely not Sanguine. The lack of early testing means the cat is out of the bag  in the UK, Canada and the USA when we could have got ahead of it if the political will had been there. Actual viral survival data is becoming available and we can look at it as it comes along and then add our own private comfort factor.

I'm lucky that I have access to an ethylene oxide chamber for things that I can't comfortably sanitize.

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16 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

As of today, there have been no reported cases of somebody catching the virus from touching a contaminated surface. 

Just how does one determine whether someone picked up the virus from a surface?

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1 hour ago, La Folia said:

Just how does one determine whether someone picked up the virus from a surface?

For example, someone living alone with no contact with an infected person but receiving items in the mail or by delivery comes down with the virus.

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19 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

For example, someone living alone with no contact with an infected person but receiving items in the mail or by delivery comes down with the virus.

There are thousands of people who have contracted it with no known source, other than one of two ways, they either got it from someone else, or they got it by touching something that had the virus on it, your logic is highly improbable that no one got it from touching a surface. As well as there being no way to test that, of course without intentionally infecting someone.

Best to be WAY safe and simply let things sit as long as possible {4 to 5 weeks}. As this progresses , these things will be the least of anyone's worry. 

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23 hours ago, Violadamore said:

What I'm currently doing is handling incoming packages with the same gloves I use for handling hazardous substances like dead animals, and submerging the gloves in a bucket of chlorine bleach solution before I remove them, just as I do when I finish skinning or butchering.

Blink. 

Well, that was an unexpected but very informative piece of advice.

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26 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

your logic is highly improbable that no one got it from touching a surface.

It has nothing to do with logic. There is no scientific proof that anybody contracted it from touching a surface contaminated with the virus. To the best of my knowledge, that is an undisputed fact.

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25 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

It has nothing to do with logic. There is no scientific proof that anybody contracted it from touching a surface contaminated with the virus. To the best of my knowledge, that is an undisputed fact.

It has everything to with logic. If there are two ways to contract it, it would be highly illogical to assume that people are contracting it only one way. 

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23 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

It has everything to with logic. If there are two ways to contract it, it would be highly illogical to assume that people are contracting it only one way. 

There are actually many many ways people could possibly contract COVID-19, not just "two ways." Maybe they could get it from mosquito bites or sexual transmission or sharing needles or space aliens, but there is no evidence of those, either.   

The fact is that there is no scientific proof to-date that anybody contracted COVID-19 from merely touching a surface contaminated with the virus.

No proof. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

What is utterly illogical is substituting unproven speculation for cold hard facts. 

Done.

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On 3/26/2020 at 2:13 PM, Violadamore said:

What I'm currently doing is handling incoming packages with the same gloves I use for handling hazardous substances like dead animals, and submerging the gloves in a bucket of chlorine bleach solution before I remove them, just as I do when I finish skinning or butchering.

Sounds like a plan. What is the water/bleach ratio in the bucket, and how long do you keep the gloves immersed?

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Rue wrote:

"Did I do my own science on Covid-19? No. Am I a scientist? Yes. Am I an immunologist? No.  Do I know a little about various pathogens? Yes, part of the field I'm in. Do I read, and question, while I review scientific material? Yes."

I'm an immunologist. Rue is right. If you leave the violins for 72h, they should be safe. There has already been some work done on the infectivity or SARS-CoV 1 and MERS but these are slightly different viruses from SARS CoV 2. Recently (17th March) a letter was published in the NEJM by people from National Institute of Allergy, CDC, UCLA and Princeton in the USA. They inoculated different types of surface with SARS CoV 2 and looked at survival times. Currently this is the best and highest quality evidence available. 

The virus survives for different times on different surfaces, but it survived for longest on plastic and steel (2-3d). It's reasonable to assume that a varnish is similar to plastic so isolating the violins for 3 days should be fine.

I should also say that the epidemiological evidence shows so far, that this is mainly a droplet-spread infection and the main mode is somebody with the infection sneezing or coughing close to you. The droplets land on your face or hands resulting in easy transfer to nose, mouth or eyes. Touching previously contaminated surfaces doesn't seem to be a major route of infection, but could happen. So you should all be more worried about plastic food packaging than violins. Personally, I quarantine these for 3d or disinfect them with dilute household bleach if I need to use them sooner than that. 

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31 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Sounds like a plan. What is the water/bleach ratio in the bucket, and how long do you keep the gloves immersed?

Two cups bleach to a "five gallon" plastic feed bucket full of water to the fill ring, 30 seconds with scrubbing motions.  :)

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46 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

There are actually many many ways people could possibly contract COVID-19, not just "two ways." Maybe they could get it from mosquito bites or sexual transmission or sharing needles or space aliens, but there is no evidence of those, either.   

The fact is that there is no scientific proof to-date that anybody contracted COVID-19 from merely touching a surface contaminated with the virus.

No proof. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

What is utterly illogical is substituting unproven speculation for cold hard facts. 

Done.

I'll note that scientific acceptance of a phenomenon usually follows its occurrence by several car lengths.  No harm in reasonable caution while things get sorted out.

BTW, sharing space aliens sounds dangerous, and seriously kinky besides.  :ph34r::lol:

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2 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

BTW, sharing space aliens sounds dangerous, and seriously kinky besides.  :ph34r::lol:

Don't knock it until you've tried it. :D

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1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

Two cups bleach to a "five gallon" plastic feed bucket full of water to the fill ring, 30 seconds with scrubbing motions.  :)

I recently read that you should use the diluted bleach solution within 24 hours and it should remain on the surface for some 10 or 15 minutes before wiping it off. Presumably the bleach solution becomes weaker over time. I've absolutely no idea if that is true though.  

Not sure I'd want to dowse apples or carrots in bleach solution. Waiting weeks isn't really viable either.

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2 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

There are actually many many ways people could possibly contract COVID-19, not just "two ways." Maybe they could get it from mosquito bites or sexual transmission or sharing needles or space aliens, but there is no evidence of those, either.   

The fact is that there is no scientific proof to-date that anybody contracted COVID-19 from merely touching a surface contaminated with the virus.

No proof. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

What is utterly illogical is substituting unproven speculation for cold hard facts. 

Done.

Well, I concede there is more than two ways,{mosquito bites, the other ways I would classify as "getting it from someone} I would call them the primary ways.

I suppose the simple question you want to ask yourself is;  if you knew 100% that someone had Covid 19, and they just got done playing the violin, are you going to want to play it right after them if they handed it to you? 

There have been many studies about how long it lives on different surfaces, but at this point I would add , which strain, because apparently a lab in iceland just found 40 mutations, so perhaps each one is different?

all I know George is I'd rather play it safe

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11 minutes ago, Michael.N. said:

I recently read that you should use the diluted bleach solution within 24 hours and it should remain on the surface for some 10 or 15 minutes before wiping it off. Presumably the bleach solution becomes weaker over time. I've absolutely no idea if that is true though.  

Not sure I'd want to dowse apples or carrots in bleach solution. Waiting weeks isn't really viable either.

Chlorine breaks down into water and salt. It is used in our drinking water. If you leave tap water out to off-gas, the chlorine will gone in 24-hours or less.

It's strongest straight out of the bottle. Make sure you keep your bottles of bleach tightly closed.

Just rinsing your veggies, as per usual, should be enough.

As bad as this is, this isn't an alien super-bug. It's a "new" cold/flu type virus. The issue is just that - it's new. We haven't been exposed to it before, so we have no immunity in the population, but it appears that the virus itself isn't any harder to kill than the cold/flu viruses we're used to.

The Spanish Flu had two major outbreaks. The first in 1918, and more the following winter.

Hopefully, this time they will have a vaccine ready to use within a year. A vaccine, plus developing herd immunity, should bring everything back in balance. And - we also have better health care available than in 1918 (respirators, antibiotics for 2ndary infections...). As long as we can access that healthcare if we need it... 

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2 hours ago, Rue said:

The issue is just that - it's new. We haven't been exposed to it before, so we have no immunity in the population, but it appears that the virus itself isn't any harder to kill than the cold/flu viruses we're used to.

Unlike "normal" cold and flu viruses, COVID-19 attacks the alveoli in the deepest parts of the lungs where oxygen from the air is absorbed into the blood. That is why is at least 10 times as deadly as the regular flu, and it suffocates its victims by causing a flood of liquid to be released into the alveoli as an immune response.

The typical flu and cold bugs start in the upper respiratory tract and don't make it down to the alveoli.

Homo sapiens are not "used to" this kind of virus, and we don't know if we will be able to develop a vaccine against it yet. 

People need to take this virus with deadly seriousness.

Note to @Rue  I modified this as I thought you were talking about "killing" the virus in vivo, but you were referring to killing it in vitro with disinfectants. That was my misinterpretation, and I apologize for my error.

 

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2 hours ago, Michael.N. said:

I recently read that you should use the diluted bleach solution within 24 hours and it should remain on the surface for some 10 or 15 minutes before wiping it off. Presumably the bleach solution becomes weaker over time. I've absolutely no idea if that is true though.  

Not sure I'd want to dowse apples or carrots in bleach solution. Waiting weeks isn't really viable either.

Actually, it's been recommended that you wash produce in a 200 ppm sodium hypochlorite solution, followed by a water rinse, since long before the current crisis.  The directions I gave yield a roughly 2500 ppm solution used for serious decontamination of non-food surfaces (e.g.. protective clothing).  How long you leave it on is a matter of what agent you are neutralizing, and estimates given to the public vary.  IMHO, under current circumstances, half a minute sounds adequate for gloves.  :)

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Hopefully we're all still around long enough to find out :ph34r:.

But taking this virus seriously (which I certainly am) or turning this virus into something "more" than it is, are two different things. (I see I need to work on my vocabulary <_<...)...

I'm alarmed at the number of people who don't think soap and water are sufficient. In their panic they are doing things like drinking aquarium cleaner, bleach and methanol - and killing themselves, or doing permanent damage.

So, if you get the virus, you have a (maybe) 3% chance of dying. If you drink bleach (or whatever) you have a (maybe) 90% chance of dying.

It's a gamble either way, but I prefer the lower odds.

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3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

I'll note that scientific acceptance of a phenomenon usually follows its occurrence by several car lengths.  No harm in reasonable caution while things get sorted out.

BTW, sharing space aliens sounds dangerous, and seriously kinky besides.  :ph34r::lol:

Well, you can see how it might happen, you're partying with the space aliens and occasionally, a needle gets shared. It's happened to all of us, um...right? 

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I just copied this question from a WHO site:

"Question: As long as there are sterilizers that eliminate the Coronavirus in hands and surfaces .... why is it not extracted from it a drug that helps individuals recover from the Corona pandemic?"

This explains, to me, a little about the problem.

The logic is that if alcohol kills the virus on hands and surfaces, why can't we drink alcohol to kill the virus that's inside us?

...hence, they are drinking methanol. 

I honestly think we need to teach some basic pathology and hygiene in elementary school. Nothing too in depth or scary at that age, but start with the basics; what is a virus, bacteria, fungus. How can we deal with each of those? When and how should we wash our hands. Why should we cover our mouths when we cough and sneeze...

 

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2 hours ago, Fossil Ledges said:

Well, you can see how it might happen, you're partying with the space aliens and occasionally, a needle gets shared. It's happened to all of us, um...right? 

Lysol.jpg.37c5b7df210fc8630a012c056f2678b5.jpg

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