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2020 Pandemic Covid-19


Don Noon
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I'm not an economist or a virologist, so I'm going to steer clear of any armchair activity in either realm. I am fortunate to still be working, but like David B I am aware of the possibility that some of my commissions will be canceled. My wife, on the other hand, has had her income as a performer and teacher dry up completely. We are lucky to have been able to save some money to live on very frugally, but if the crisis drags on there will come a moment where we will be faced with some very hard choices. I am very concerned for my fellow workers who's livelihoods have evaporated completely and who live on the margins of poverty even in the fat times. We must all be very kind and very patient with each other, and generous as we can safely be.

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1 minute ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I'm not an economist or a virologist, so I'm going to steer clear of any armchair activity in either realm. I am fortunate to still be working, but like David B I am aware of the possibility that some of my commissions will be canceled. My wife, on the other hand, has had her income as a performer and teacher dry up completely. We are lucky to have been able to save some money to live on very frugally, but if the crisis drags on there will come a moment where we will be faced with some very hard choices. I am very concerned for my fellow workers who's livelihoods have evaporated completely and who live on the margins of poverty even in the fat times. We must all be very kind and very patient with each other, and generous as we can safely be.

It's going to be the same for everyone, there will come a point where even if you have money it won't matter, fist fulls of dollars will mean nothing if no one has anything to sell  and when that time comes, you will see....the next phase of the operation.

Guns, gardens,farming and canning will be the real currency for awhile.

Me, I'm working in chopping up newspaper to refashion it into toilet paper :lol:

Understand, we live in a society that is based on a "debt based monetary system" the end results of long drawn out debt based society is millions of disenfranchised desperate people who have nothing left to loose.

When people have nothing left to loose, they loose it.

Rue, cue the zombies   

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38 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Where will the money come from? This question is in no way partisan.  Just a real question.

I answered this question in detail. I don’t know what happened, but apparently it did not post.

trying again: low-income people live hand to mouth, rarely have any savings at all, and have very high debt, because they don’t qualify for low interest rates and must seek loans from things like credit card advances. Even in the best of times, they have to service a huge amount of debt and because interest rates are obscene( not hyperbole) they can never get ahead of their debt.

The best way to help lower wage earners at the moment is to eliminate/freeze the interest they have to pay on their credit cards. That costs nothing, because it doesn’t involve the government giving money to anybody. It involves the credit card companies accepting reduced income for the time being. However, credit card interest is typically over 20%, so they can afford it.

That’s a simple and meaningful solution, costs the government nothing, and at worst functions like a tax on the credit card companies, which is what a large part of congress wants anyway.

If government gives money to low-income earners who then service their debt, we accomplish less than nothing....but the Citibank folks are happy, so there’s that.

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5 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

I answered this question in detail. I don’t know what happened, but apparently it did not post.

trying again: low-income people live hand to mouth, rarely have any savings at all, and have very high debt, because they don’t qualify for low interest rates and must seek loans from things like credit card advances. Even in the best of times, they have to service a huge amount of debt and because interest rates are obscene( not hyperbole) they can never get ahead of their debt.

The best way to help lower wage earners at the moment is to eliminate/freeze the interest they have to pay on their credit cards. That costs nothing, because it doesn’t involve the government giving money to anybody. It involves the credit card companies accepting reduced income for the time being. However, credit card interest is typically over 20%, so they can afford it.

That’s a simple and meaningful solution, costs the government nothing, and at worst functions like a tax on the credit card companies, which is what a large part of congress wants anyway.

If government gives money to low-income earners who then service their debt, we accomplish less than nothing....but the Citibank folks are happy, so there’s that.

Where does the government get the money? Like for example the 1 trillion they are going to give to people, where does that come from?

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4 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

Where does the government get the money? Like for example the 1 trillion they are going to give to people, where does that come from?

 I have no idea where the United States is going to get the trillion dollars they are talking about spending, anymore than I have any idea where they’re going to get the trillion dollars they’ve already spent.

But the idea that I postulated, as I pointed out, doesn’t involve the government spending any money at all.

How can it possibly be a bad idea if it accomplishes a meaningful goal without costing anything? 

Who would bear the burden? The credit card companies, who would see a freeze on credit card interest. That will affect their bottom line, yes that is correct. But they’ve got huge amount of money. And when you’re charging several times the prime interest rate for the money you’re lending, you’re making tons of profit, and you can use some of that profit to tide yourself over during this time when you are making less profit.

I’m not a socialist, and this is not a socialist idea, but it is a very good idea.

Edited by PhilipKT
Clarity
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32 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

How many rolls of Charmin and cans of olive oil is it worth to you?  :ph34r:  :lol:

Gotta protect my toilet paper. Time to clean my shotgun. Last time I had it out was about 20 years ago when my teenage daughters were dating. :lol:

"Come on in boy, sit on down
And tell me 'bout yourself
So you like my daughter, do you now
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl and her mama's world
She deserves respect, that's what she'll get, ain't it son
Now y'all run along and have some fun
I'll see you when you get back
Bet I'll be up all night
Still cleaning this gun" 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Gotta protect my toilet paper. Time to clean my shotgun. Last time I had it out was about 20 years ago when my teenage daughters were dating. :lol:

"Come on in boy, sit on down
And tell me 'bout yourself
So you like my daughter, do you now
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl and her mama's world
She deserves respect, that's what she'll get, ain't it son
Now y'all run along and have some fun
I'll see you when you get back
Bet I'll be up all night
Still cleaning this gun" 

 

 

LIKE!!!!  :ph34r:  :lol:

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26 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

We must all be very kind and very patient with each other, and generous as we can safely be.

One violin I delivered this week to professional musicians where their income has dropped to zero.  I am fortunate enough to not need income from violinmaking to pay bills, so it's on "extended evaluation" until their finances improve... whenever that is.  Keeping clients happy is better in the long run, I figure.

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6 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Gotta protect my toilet paper. Time to clean my shotgun. Last time I had it out was about 20 years ago when my teenage daughters were dating. :lol:

"Come on in boy, sit on down
And tell me 'bout yourself
So you like my daughter, do you now
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl and her mama's world
She deserves respect, that's what she'll get, ain't it son
Now y'all run along and have some fun
I'll see you when you get back
Bet I'll be up all night
Still cleaning this gun" 

 

 

Made me laugh! But boy that’s a lousy shotgun, especially mixed with the whiskey. The revolver is a far better choice. Six chances to make your point instead of only one.

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9 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Gotta protect my toilet paper. Time to clean my shotgun. Last time I had it out was about 20 years ago when my teenage daughters were dating. :lol:

"Come on in boy, sit on down
And tell me 'bout yourself
So you like my daughter, do you now
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl and her mama's world
She deserves respect, that's what she'll get, ain't it son
Now y'all run along and have some fun
I'll see you when you get back
Bet I'll be up all night
Still cleaning this gun" 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

One violin I delivered this week to professional musicians where their income has dropped to zero.  I am fortunate enough to not need income from violinmaking to pay bills, so it's on "extended evaluation" until their finances improve... whenever that is.  Keeping clients happy is better in the long run, I figure.

This is exactly the kind of thing we need to be doing as a society. 

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We've been practicing social distancing, with the schools and gatherings closed for over two weeks. Music has stopped,  and I expect to earn nothing until some normality returns. But I don't think this will happen for months  at least, not weeks, by which time I wonder will there be an economy left at all. I wonder if money will be worth anything at all.

We have nearly 800 tested cases here, and 3 have died - almost nothing compared with the Italian tragedy.  But we know it's  coming, and really  hope that our isolation  will  slow it down. It strikes me that governments really  set the tone in crises like this. Here, our government took action reasonably quickly.  But others didn't,  and their people could pay a high price. Its amazing to see people still burying the head in the sand. 

For myself,  I've decided to restore some things that have been staring me in the face for years, and to finish just the instruments I'm working on.  Plant the garden, breed some good queens and make some hives, and rebuild  some machines and the like with my sons.

I wish you all well. Take this very seriously. 

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I was diagnosed a few weeks ago with cancer left behind by my prostatectomy of two years ago. Before I could have radiation treatments, Memorial Sloan Kettering said I need a colonoscopy. Oh great. This is elective surgery that is being canceled to make way for emergency Coronavirus patients. Well, I lucked out. A doctor squeezed me in for the colonoscopy and it went well. However, MSK called to say my radiation treatment is postponed for 8 to 10 weeks.  
 

We were supposed to go on a tour of Morocco with friends, but that got quashed. I just read that the FAA is closing down NY and Philadelphia area airports due to insufficient staffing.  As for finding a trillion dollars, the Feds will issue more debt which is equivalent to printing more money. Hyperinflation could be coming. I feel as though this is the end of days with 666 sitting in the Oval Office orchestrating our demise.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

 I have no idea where the United States is going to get the trillion dollars they are talking about spending, anymore than I have any idea where they’re going to get the trillion dollars they’ve already spent.

But the idea that I postulated, as I pointed out, doesn’t involve the government spending any money at all.

How can it possibly be a bad idea if it accomplishes a meaningful goal without costing anything? 

Who would bear the burden? The credit card companies, who would see a freeze on credit card interest. That will affect their bottom line, yes that is correct. But they’ve got huge amount of money. And when you’re charging several times the prime interest rate for the money you’re lending, you’re making tons of profit, and you can use some of that profit to tide yourself over during this time when you are making less profit.

I’m not a socialist, and this is not a socialist idea, but it is a very good idea.

The government gets the money from the federal reserve bank. Where does the federal reserve get the money from?

Not putting you down, but your idea has many "issues" , it just kicks the can further down the road and does not address the real problem, Which is why is the USA, and or any other country for that matter, not creating the currency we use at cost and instead uses a "bank" {a gang of mass murderers} to create the money for us with debt attached?

I'll tell you why, the answer is everyone wants money, they know what it is and can for them, but they understand NOTHING about how it comes into existence. Or, human monkeys have been trained to want money after it has been made but understand nothing about how or who is creating it, and because of that, they will have no idea why any of this is happening.

we live in two worlds now, all based on information and or what you think "reality is" in world number 1, people watch tv, listen to the radio, read newspapers and listen to others who have done the same , a circle of misinformation, then in world number 2, there is the "conspiracy theory" people, people who do not get "informed" by these "traditional" methods, choose to seek answers elsewhere, and to people like that, this has been predicted for years.

Look at all of Bill Gates involvement in "bio" stuff, some may say he's been sounding the alarm bell for a long time, others would say that he's been developing a eugenics program.

again, just like in quantum physics, everything is based on information probabilities. People have been trained to seek the least likely probability based on bad information.  

Quite simply, we've been living inside a big fat lie for 100 years and now it may be exposed as such.

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16 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

This is exactly the kind of thing we need to be doing as a society. 

This is really the answer, everybody just keep doing what you have always been doing and charge no one anything for anything, put a moratorium on means of exchange.

I think the problem is there are too many who would take advantage of it.

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6 hours ago, Don Noon said:

I'm a bit surprised there has not been more discussion and information about this elephant in the room.  Surely some of our members in N. Italy have been severely impacted, if not infected.  Here in S. California this week a statewide "stay at home" order has been issued, with about the only benefit being that there is no traffic.  But there's also nowhere to go... restaurants, theaters, and many other things are closed.  Colleges are closed to in-person classes, and continuing on-line (we have 2 kids in college, now, or shortly, back at home).  Fortunately... as of this moment... I don't know of anyone directly who has been infected.

While this all has no direct effect on me making violins in my garage/shop, some of my clients are in trouble... the ones who make their living from music and concerts.  All cancelled, income drops to near zero.  And this situation has no visible end yet.

How y'all doing out there?

Well, we tried talking about it...got shut down...:rolleyes:

We have only (so far) 20 [nevermind - it's now 44 :wacko: ] cases in the province, and we've shut down as well.   Hopefully early enough to contain the virus more than other cities have managed.

Hubby is the family grocery shopper.  I sent him to get $30 worth of lettuce and veggies.  He came home with $300 worth of items that we will certainly use, but didn't need right now.  And, btw, we're not hoarding anything, this is all within our 'normal' shopping - just wasn't on the list for this week.

And...to get groceries, he had to stand in line for 45 minutes and have an altercation with a 25-year old who was trying to cut in . :ph34r:

He also didn't get the $30 of veggies I needed (yes, needed, my tortoise has to eat fresh greens.  What she doesn't eat, we eat).  So we will have to try again tomorrow...just for the lettuce ...

If this keeps up (the grocery store issues, not the pandemic), I'll have to try growing our own lettuce in a pot.  

Edited by Rue
The covid-19 cases have doubled overnight...
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7 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

I was diagnosed a few weeks ago with cancer left behind by my prostatectomy of two years ago. Before I could have radiation treatments, Memorial Sloan Kettering said I need a colonoscopy. Oh great. This is elective surgery that is being canceled to make way for emergency Coronavirus patients. Well, I lucked out. A doctor squeezed me in for the colonoscopy and it went well. However, MSK called to say my radiation treatment is postponed for 8 to 10 weeks.  
 

We were supposed to go on a tour of Morocco with friends, but that got quashed. I just read that the FAA is closing down NY and Philadelphia area airports due to insufficient staffing.  As for finding a trillion dollars, the Feds will issue more debt which is equivalent to printing more money. Hyperinflation could be coming. I feel as though this is the end of days with 666 sitting in the Oval Office orchestrating our demise.

 

 

Crap Mike, sorry to hear that, I hope your feeling ok. I too have some medical stuff that I am postponing and just hoping that I can hang on long enough before stuff gets too bad with me physically. Not really looking forward to going to a hospital full of virus patients. 

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1 hour ago, jezzupe said:

The government gets the money from the federal reserve bank. Where does the federal reserve get the money from?

Not putting you down, but your idea has many "issues" , it just kicks the can further down the road and does not address the real problem, Which is why is the USA, and or any other country for that matter, not creating the currency we use at cost and instead uses a "bank" {a gang of mass murderers} to create the money for us with debt attached?

I'll tell you why, the answer is everyone wants money, they know what it is and can for them, but they understand NOTHING about how it comes into existence. Or, human monkeys have been trained to want money after it has been made but understand nothing about how or who is creating it, and because of that, they will have no idea why any of this is happening.

we live in two worlds now, all based on information and or what you think "reality is" in world number 1, people watch tv, listen to the radio, read newspapers and listen to others who have done the same , a circle of misinformation, then in world number 2, there is the "conspiracy theory" people, people who do not get "informed" by these "traditional" methods, choose to seek answers elsewhere, and to people like that, this has been predicted for years.

Look at all of Bill Gates involvement in "bio" stuff, some may say he's been sounding the alarm bell for a long time, others would say that he's been developing a eugenics program.

again, just like in quantum physics, everything is based on information probabilities. People have been trained to seek the least likely probability based on bad information.  

Quite simply, we've been living inside a big fat lie for 100 years and now it may be exposed as such.

I may be misunderstanding you, but I think you’re missing my point.

I agree about the trillion dollars of debt we are looking at, and the 2 trillion dollars of debt we currently have, but what I’m talking about involves spending no money at all. It involves directing the credit card companies, who are making obscene amounts of interest from loaning money, to stop charging interest. That will cost the credit card companies, both in lost revenue, and in the fact that they will have to service their debt themselves, but they are only servicing their debt at the prime rate, so it will cost them comparatively less money.

I understand where you’re coming from regarding debt, And I have agreed with your general thoughts about money as a weapon, but that’s not relevant to my suggestion.

Also, with no disrespect intended, I think you went off on a tangent irrelevant to my suggestion.

Edited by PhilipKT
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29 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

I was diagnosed a few weeks ago with cancer left behind by my prostatectomy of two years ago. Before I could have radiation treatments, Memorial Sloan Kettering said I need a colonoscopy. Oh great. This is elective surgery that is being canceled to make way for emergency Coronavirus patients. Well, I lucked out. A doctor squeezed me in for the colonoscopy and it went well. However, MSK called to say my radiation treatment is postponed for 8 to 10 weeks.  
...

I'm very sorry to hear that. :(  I hope it still ends up going well for you...

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