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Shunyata

Sound Post Technique

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5 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

That's Australian music, combined with some American symbolism.

Many Northern Americans and Australians consider ourselves to be kindred spirits, since so many of our ancestors came from far away places, leaving so much behind to go to some far away and largely unknown place, gambling that with creativity and hard work, they could make a go of it.

Ha! I didn't see Ernie's post before  my reply David. I find your explanations a bit vague, that's all I meant. 

While i congratulate  you on your spirit  of  hard work  and  innovation in the new world, bear in mind that many of those who stayed behind, survived the hardships  with the same true grit, and kept the old world  going too.

 

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A sound post should be slanted towards the bridge foot slightly as in 3 degrees from perpendicular to the bottom of the sound post and less than 6mm thickness of the sound post with the grain of the wood 33 degrees of angle against the grain of the top plate, if it sits underneath the back of the bridge foot towards middle and not too tight, it will vibrate in unison with both backwards and side ways motion rather than a raspy sound, which comes from hard wooden sound posts too thin and too tight, it will sound much clearer, project best and will brighten up the sound. And dynamics will respond better due to the correct pressure of the post connection between the two plates. Also in bigger instruments like the viola it stops buzzing on the C string.

Do it when on medication or if you're into Sadistic self harm....

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2 hours ago, Ernest Martel said:

 I don't care for you and never really have. 

I, along with John Schmidt, who will whole heartedly agree with me, would not be as good as makers without his help.  He didn't have to offer needed advice at the time but he did.  Thank you Sir.  I really didn't know what the heck I was doing then - just going through the motions mostly.

On the flip side - I'm liking Ernie's work these days too.

   

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12 hours ago, Ernest Martel said:

 I don't care for you and never really have.

 

That's fascinating! I don't care for raw oysters and never really have. :)

Maybe we should have a thread on things/people we don't like? :lol:

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20 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I don't care for raw oysters and never really have. :):lol:

Lots of people  seem  to  love  them!

But lewd insults  aside, I'm none the wiser on how one might plan to  improve  a violin by tilting  the  post. I'm truly interested,  and I'd really like  an explanation from you or anyone else. I do come across  difficult instruments, and I'd be  grateful  for any ideas that  might help. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Conor Russell said:

I'm none the wiser on how one might plan to  improve  a violin by tilting  the  post. I'm truly interested,  and I'd really like  an explanation from you or anyone else. I do come across  difficult instruments, and I'd be  grateful  for any ideas that  might help. 

 

It's not that I would plan to tilt a post, counting on a known and predictable sonic or playing effect from doing so. Instead, I have the notion that there is an optimal position on the top, and an optimal position on the back, and that there's no reason to believe that a vertical line would happen to pass through the center of each.

A lot of this positioning, for me, Is initially trial and error, trying to notice and establish trends applicable to that particular instrument as I go. But if an instrument comes in with a really crooked post that seems to fit pretty well, I will suspect that this was done for a reason, and will try to memorialize the position before changing anything. I might need to go back to it, and knowing how it was positioned previously can be a lot faster than starting over from scratch.

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

It's not that I would plan to tilt a post, counting on a known and predictable sonic or playing effect from doing so. Instead, I have the notion that there is an optimal position on the top, and an optimal position on the back, and that there's no reason to believe that a vertical line would happen to pass through the center of each.

A lot of this positioning, for me, Is initially trial and error, trying to notice and establish trends applicable to that particular instrument as I go. But if an instrument comes in with a really crooked post that seems to fit pretty well, I will suspect that this was done for a reason, and will try to memorialize the position before changing anything. I might need to go back to it, and knowing how it was positioned previously can be a lot faster than starting over from scratch.

Thanks  David. 

Your point about optimal positions on the back and front  rings true to me, but I've never been  able  to  develop a sense of what's going on, in order to make a semi-predictable change. Between setting up and tuning each time, I'm not convinced I can hold the memory of the previous sound. And if I simply slacken the strings, and move the ends, I dont feel  get a true result, as I explained  earlier.

Perhaps one of those new fangled soundposts with the swivel end might prove useful here, but I've never invested in one.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

It's not that I would plan to tilt a post, counting on a known and predictable sonic or playing effect from doing so. Instead, I have the notion that there is an optimal position on the top, and an optimal position on the back, and that there's no reason to believe that a vertical line would happen to pass through the center of each.

I too see no physical or acoustic reasoning to say that the post should be "vertical".  Why not perpendicular to the top plate (sloped) surface?  Equal angles to the top and bottom ends of the post?  They are all equally  unsupported ideas.

I would go one step further than David:  hypothetically, every position on the back will have an optimal position on the top, and vice versa.  They are not independently optimal spots on the top and back (although I admit that for practical purposes, it might be close enough).  Oh... and what is "optimal" anyway?  Isn't that opinion?

41 minutes ago, Conor Russell said:

Thanks  David. 

Your point about optimal positions on the back and front  rings true to me, but I've never been  able  to  develop a sense of what's going on, in order to make a semi-predictable change.

I have tried tilting the post in various ways, often trying to use modal maps to increase or decrease one mode or another, but without any great success to report.  So I rely on "oh, that sounds pretty good" and stop there.  Some months or years later I'll discover the tilted post and wonder what I was thinking, change it out for my  new way of thinking, and of course it sounds better to me.  Who knows.

The only consistent thing I know that has a reliable (and measurable) effect is the distance from the bridge foot to the post.  In particular, there is one mode around 840 Hz or so that is very sensitive, and can get overly strong if the post is too far away.  Although that mode is a marker for me, you still have to play it to see how the whole thing works.

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5 hours ago, David Burgess said:

That's fascinating! I don't care for raw oysters and never really have. :)

Maybe we should have a thread on things/people we don't like? :lol:

Right. I said my peace. I'll remove my posts to preserve the thead.

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18 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I someone came into you with a fiddle they were ecstatic about, with a post which didn't appear "to be straight" to you, would you try to "fix it" or not?

I would take it in the back, make a cup of coffee, stare out the window for half an hour, then give it back unaltered and charge them $75 bucks.

(This is satire, would never do that.)

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Many thanks for all the ideas! Would anyone care to say something about soundpost woods? (I've read wildly conflicting statements about this is previous threads)

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Personally, I don’t mess with a customer’s setup unless I’m asked to change something. I like to keep a record of the way the setup is done so I can go back to it if the customer wants. It gives both of us peace of mind. Fine setup work is an investment for the customer, so I want them to feel the money they’ve spent before hasn’t been in vain.

Usually, if the fit is an issue, the sound will have suffered enough already that the customer will want me to make changes. 

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6 hours ago, David Burgess said:

It's not that I would plan to tilt a post, counting on a known and predictable sonic or playing effect from doing so. Instead, I have the notion that there is an optimal position on the top, and an optimal position on the back, and that there's no reason to believe that a vertical line would happen to pass through the center of each.

A lot of this positioning, for me, Is initially trial and error, trying to notice and establish trends applicable to that particular instrument as I go. But if an instrument comes in with a really crooked post that seems to fit pretty well, I will suspect that this was done for a reason, and will try to memorialize the position before changing anything. I might need to go back to it, and knowing how it was positioned previously can be a lot faster than starting over from scratch.

What I wonder about most is whether it’s the position, the all-around fit of the surfaces, or the amount of tension that ultimately makes the post work well.

For example, if a post is put in so it’s “straight” but doesn’t sound right, does changing the orientation fix this by putting the ends of the post in better spots, or is it effectively the same as cutting a shorter post? It seems to me that as the post moves away from being upright, the vertical force on the post is reduced.

I’m rather careful about where I place the post when I start a setup, but I’ve found that if I don’t get the tension at the right point, the instrument will suffer, regardless of its position. If I nail it, there seems to be a bit of room to make adjustments to taste. Outside a certain range, the tension has changed enough that it just doesn’t seem to work. 

When making adjustments for players, I’m making small changes to position, but it’s certainly possible that the post ends up slightly “crooked” by the time it’s finished, as I can’t know with any confidence without taking down the setup.

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1 hour ago, The Violin Beautiful said:

What I wonder about most is whether it’s the position, the all-around fit of the surfaces, or the amount of tension that ultimately makes the post work well.

For example, if a post is put in so it’s “straight” but doesn’t sound right, does changing the orientation fix this by putting the ends of the post in better spots, or is it effectively the same as cutting a shorter post? It seems to me that as the post moves away from being upright, the vertical force on the post is reduced.

I’m rather careful about where I place the post when I start a setup, but I’ve found that if I don’t get the tension at the right point, the instrument will suffer, regardless of its position. If I nail it, there seems to be a bit of room to make adjustments to taste. Outside a certain range, the tension has changed enough that it just doesn’t seem to work. 

 

Sorry, I don't have a foolproof or dogmatic response to all that. If I were more interested in faking it, I suppose I would, and do a better job posturing as an expert. ;)

When it comes to sound and playing qualities, I don't place as much significance on soundpost tension as some do. To me, this seems largely interchangeable with soundpost position, as long as the tension doesn't go really far out of normal and structurally ideal values.

Pasewicz describes things more in terms of soundpost tension than I do, but I don't know if he has experimented with all the whacky positions and angles I have. He and I have had some long discussions about things like that, and I do value his opinions even when we aren't exactly on the same page . Perhaps he will comment.

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Hello, am I invisible? Have I ceased to exist?

Also, why does there have to be nastiness again?

Stop fighting or Georgie will smack, she will smack!

I've made and set sound posts to around 800 violins some of mine which I made, and needless to say, so I will, have shed blood, swore, prayed, cried, and effed up a few F holes, by being crap and amateur in those dark, lonely cheerless hours, learning how to not give up and just go down the pub and have a fight, BTW, those S shaped sound post setters, in my opinion, and bitter experience are too wide for violin F holes. They are fine for big violas say 16 inch violas upwards in size. I tried that clasping one and it's also a pain in the arse.

String is stupid and pointless to the point of ridiculous proportions for setting in a sound post.

If your sound post has fallen down and needs re setting, and you have never re set one back in and you are not near a violin repairer, but you have to play the violin, viola whatever. Maybe you ARE one of those rare creatures, hardly seen in the open, especially in the daylight, mainly kept in captivity now, a violin player, which get's it's money for playing music well enough to actually get paid real money for playing (rare enough) and your Guarneri's sound post, fell, in a bizarre set of circumstances involving a projectile vomiting violin playing creature, in a cyber café close by Notre Dam, on the very day before it was burnt down in a mystery blaze, who had chosen the precise moment when you opened your violin case, taken out your precious fiddle to finger practice Mahler, when the full force of the prawn, oh and carrot infested sick spurged with hurricane force issued from said fellow creature's mandibles, through your F hole, with resultant sound post dislodgment...hmmm. Bit of a sticky situation and, as Shakespeare said, before being pelted with rotten tomatoes at the Globe, and quoteth I, The Bard, "What do you bloody well mean! not too far fetched."

The Audience, retorting, "Oh yes it is!"

Quothe I The Bard, "Oh no it's not!"

Which we all know became extremely popular AND the standard comedy routine used worldwide (and on Maestronet quite a bit too much)...

Now where was I?

Quell Ca Chouse, ooo eh la sichuaaachioneh? Eh le mantanant la coat hanger, wire of course Mai wee! Also la cutting tool of zee choice, zee metal snipper cutters.

twist de metal, snip wiz ze cutters, shape de la coat hanger to an elongated S shape...use de sharp cut end as zee proder of zee prone naughty, sicky post, Dans la position air mae wee afterwards of zee cleaning Dans la Guarneri..

Ou e la prod la twist insertionay Dans la eff hole of la right hand side oui? Ya, then, shwoosh, slide upwards twist, stick a la post Dans eh la positionaire profound, a la oop! Bon! Perfecioneh!!

 

 

Eh! ! Magnefique!

Merci, merci you are too kind.

 

 

 

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Jackson I protest. You are a sataristical fibber! If you took me in the back, staring, yes...drinking...yes, but not out of the window. No position unattainable after a swift slurp! I like coffee I like tea, I like a Vodka and you can not not like me, he Lol! Sorry for being so in love with me, I understand XXX

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Could our moderator  please do something about morgana?  I love Maestronet because I've learned so much from it. I enjoy the quirkiness of the people who post here. It really bothers me to see these stupid bot postings.

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On 2/20/2020 at 4:05 PM, morgana said:

Hello, am I invisible? Have I ceased to exist?

Also, why does there have to be nastiness again?

Stop fighting or Georgie will smack, she will smack!

I've made and set sound posts to around 800 violins some of mine which I made, and needless to say, so I will, have shed blood, swore, prayed, cried, and effed up a few F holes, by being crap and amateur in those dark, lonely cheerless hours, learning how to not give up and just go down the pub and have a fight, BTW, those S shaped sound post setters, in my opinion, and bitter experience are too wide for violin F holes. They are fine for big violas say 16 inch violas upwards in size. I tried that clasping one and it's also a pain in the arse.

String is stupid and pointless to the point of ridiculous proportions for setting in a sound post.

If your sound post has fallen down and needs re setting, and you have never re set one back in and you are not near a violin repairer, but you have to play the violin, viola whatever. Maybe you ARE one of those rare creatures, hardly seen in the open, especially in the daylight, mainly kept in captivity now, a violin player, which get's it's money for playing music well enough to actually get paid real money for playing (rare enough) and your Guarneri's sound post, fell, in a bizarre set of circumstances involving a projectile vomiting violin playing creature, in a cyber café close by Notre Dam, on the very day before it was burnt down in a mystery blaze, who had chosen the precise moment when you opened your violin case, taken out your precious fiddle to finger practice Mahler, when the full force of the prawn, oh and carrot infested sick spurged with hurricane force issued from said fellow creature's mandibles, through your F hole, with resultant sound post dislodgment...hmmm. Bit of a sticky situation and, as Shakespeare said, before being pelted with rotten tomatoes at the Globe, and quoteth I, The Bard, "What do you bloody well mean! not too far fetched."

The Audience, retorting, "Oh yes it is!"

Quothe I The Bard, "Oh no it's not!"

Which we all know became extremely popular AND the standard comedy routine used worldwide (and on Maestronet quite a bit too much)...

Now where was I?

Quell Ca Chouse, ooo eh la sichuaaachioneh? Eh le mantanant la coat hanger, wire of course Mai wee! Also la cutting tool of zee choice, zee metal snipper cutters.

twist de metal, snip wiz ze cutters, shape de la coat hanger to an elongated S shape...use de sharp cut end as zee proder of zee prone naughty, sicky post, Dans la position air mae wee afterwards of zee cleaning Dans la Guarneri..

Ou e la prod la twist insertionay Dans la eff hole of la right hand side oui? Ya, then, shwoosh, slide upwards twist, stick a la post Dans eh la positionaire profound, a la oop! Bon! Perfecioneh!!

 

 

Eh! ! Magnefique!

Merci, merci you are too kind.

 

 

 

Georgie Sweets,,,

That was simply marvelous,

Right on track

Thank you for that very refreshing and much needed slap!

Yes three degrees,,, as temperature goes,, not much but just enough!

Not hot enough Yet,,,, to burst into flame, temperatures rising, tis, the end of the game.

What a shame,,,,,,

Didn't realize,,,,,, So it would would take care of the C on Viola, that does make sense, my Bar's and marbles are loose.

And could use such much needed stability, though they don't realize it yet.

On a heavy cheap one only the outside would do, it's dense and stubborn and will have  to be to be forced to change or else, all is lost.

Not to worry, Hell is bright and clear, where all is purified, it burns forever,

Don't all Violas go there?

And the grain crossing at 33, very interesting to think about.

And Think I will.

Evan

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8 hours ago, Al Cramer said:

Could our moderator  please do something about morgana?  I love Maestronet because I've learned so much from it. I enjoy the quirkiness of the people who post here. It really bothers me to see these stupid bot postings.

What bot?  That's the live Skree.....er.....Morgana.  In one form or another, she's been part of the landscape here for a long time.  One of the regulars.  Granted, probably holds the patent on quirky.  :lol:  

MN's a big tent.  Has 3 rings, too.  Enjoy the show.  :)

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On 2/20/2020 at 9:31 AM, JacksonMaberry said:

I would take it in the back, make a cup of coffee, stare out the window for half an hour, then give it back unaltered and charge them $75 bucks.

(This is satire, would never do that.)

 

On 2/20/2020 at 8:51 PM, morgana said:

Jackson I protest. You are a sataristical fibber! If you took me in the back, staring, yes...drinking...yes, but not out of the window. No position unattainable after a swift slurp! I like coffee I like tea, I like a Vodka and you can not not like me, he Lol! Sorry for being so in love with me, I understand XXX

Georgie be careful now, here in America we like to pretend that we are truly evil, (Sarcastically of course)!

And some males feel the need to always be a bad ass talk rough and stupid, be short and smart, ALL the time.

There are truly poisonous snakes, and dangerous beasts in the jungle, Jackson's a kola in the jungle hang-in with friends.

Try not to get the two mixed up, you will have a mess, oil and water won't mix,,,,

unless you add lecithin,,,

then neither one are good for nothing cept to be thrown out!

A woman had My fiddle touring south America, very humid,,, fiddle was acostumed to very dry,, post fell,,

shop wanted to charge her 100's to put it up, told her they would have to remove the top.

She called me,,, She went back and talked to them,,, STRAIGHT UP!

No Crap,,,, Stand it up you sataristical  Fibber,,,,,,They stood it up, no charge.

Another one with a Viola,,,,,, The shop wanted 120.00 to stand up the post,, just stand it where it should go,,,, we'll get it sorted out later, now's not the time,,

EMERGENCY!

She asked to borrow a ruler and a setter,, so they decided they could put it up,, it was fine.

If you're worth anything, standing up a post and getting it to go for now isn't rocket science.

You could start an elete womans soundpost setting school, the world needs it.

Or am I just another, sataristical  Fibber!

 

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10 hours ago, Al Cramer said:

Could our moderator  please do something about morgana?  I love Maestronet because I've learned so much from it. I enjoy the quirkiness of the people who post here. It really bothers me to see these stupid bot postings.

Like as in maybe send up some secret lists of who we should delete on the sly,,,you know, just secretively,,,, just take-em right out,, they're not my type.

I really enjoyed Lindon, Talked with him on the phone a few,,, really great guy. Maybe no one else will ever have to walk in his shoes, they'll just have to eat them!

I do understand rapists, and cold blooded uncontrollable killers,,,, you know,,,, not having to live with them under the same roof and all, locking them up, and sometimes executing them.

. I really fail to see Georgie's Big unpardonable sin.

Maestronet,, love it?

It's my living, my homework, I see it all, ever present and learning.

Often I think of something to say, then I follow that unknown rule,,, don't know what it is, no one knows it!

But I choose silence,,,

If I wanted to hear about masturbation and sex with animals I'd go to a PORN SITE.

If I wanted to see people take cheap shots at each other be terrified of their own shadow and be offended by every little thing I'd go to a democratic rally.

If I wanted to hear,,,,,,,, some inconstant blathering from inexperienced beginners giving their uninformed opinion parroting whatever they hear the most often,

with a total lack of understanding,,,bragging about what they know, because they are bored to death and nothing better to do,,,trying to find a life and being a part of it,,,,,,,,,,,,, I'd go to the local bar, drink with thy "BOYS" and shoot the Bull!

If  want to hear Professionals making a living at it, in the grind, day after day, taking the time to respond, with wisdom and good sense, I come to maestronet,,,,

I would like to professionally discuss the function, optimization, the ascetics and charm of certain musical instruments.

But Tis not always so,  IT is all here, all of humanity can log on and speak their mind,,,,, get used to it.

So to me,,, Maestronet is often like playing vollyball with a heavy, deflated soccer ball, wet and soggy in the rain,, the game is still on but is just ain't the same.

There are all types here, and It's ok, but not always as productive as I would like.

If there is someone or something that is highly offensive to me I don't have to take that last little peak, I know the wind is blowing and her skirt might be clear over her head,

there has been an earth quake and her bra might have broken off,,,, so if I look and I don't want to see it, is it her fault?

When my wife sits here with me there are some people that she does not want to see,,,

 

Maybe when there are signs of something you know that you don't want to see,,,,some one that really bothers YOU,,,

Block them, just like in foot ball,,,

or,

Shut your eyes, hold your breath and count to ten real quick.

 

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On February 19, 32 Heisei at 11:09 PM, Shunyata said:

I sort of figured out something that works but would be interested in suggestions.

I place the Sound post from the bass f hole, reaching over to the treble side.

First I try to get the neck to endpin direction placement right, while looking through the treble f hole.  At the top of the post, the gap between the post and the bridge foot is about the same as the top thickness.

Looking through the f hole, I try to keep the post vertical, or with the post bottom slightly canted toward the end pin.  I then use a bamboo skewer inserted through the end pin hole to true up to vertical.

Then, looking through the end pin hole, i adjust to make sure the top of the post is under the foot of the bridge and just inside the top eye of the f hole.  Then finally i adjust the bottom of the post to vertical, using the edge of the top block as a sighting guide.

This takes under five minutes - and i dont chip any varnish this way - but is probably more involved than it needs to be.

Nothing new.

Thats the way I learned it at Tokyo Violin Making School. 

 

 

 

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Henceforth, there shall be no more quirkiness or levity on Maestronet. And no more posting when blood alcohol levels exceed .48. Dave hereby decrees! :angry:

(On second thought, then we might not have anyone posting at all) :lol:

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1 hour ago, Evan Smith said:

I really enjoyed Lindon, Talked with him on the phone a few,,, really great guy. 

. I really fail to see Georgie's Big unpardonable sin.

If I wanted to hear,,,,,,,, some inconstant blathering from inexperienced beginners giving their uninformed opinion parroting whatever they hear the most often,

with a total lack of understanding,,,bragging about what they know,

Block them, just like in foot ball,,,

He was banned before I joined here and to this day the only fault of his that I can find , if it can be a fault, was that he wasn't a professionally trained workman pertaining to violins.  Some didn't like that.

Al will have to realize that tomorrow will be another day.

I do like where my inexperienced, uninformed blather has taken me so far searching for the holy grail of tone - not quite finished blathering obviously.

Yes, I do believe a strong, tough and mentally sound offensive line is a first key to championship football success -  right on Chiefs.

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