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Joe Swenson

Reasons for Stressing Plates with Tapered Ribs.

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14 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Sanding??? Heavens to Murgatroyd! :blink::P

I know right?  I was excited to see Davide Sora sanding away to even out the blocks and rib structure using the same technique I use!! I thought this whole time it was cheating. But now... well... :rolleyes:

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21 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Huh?

Extra stiffness in the box?

The taper was on lower arched instruments wasn't it? So it made the neck angle the same as on a 2mm higher arch?

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46 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Extra stiffness in the box?

The taper was on lower arched instruments wasn't it? So it made the neck angle the same as on a 2mm higher arch?

The neck angle in relation to what?

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22 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Sanding??? Heavens to Murgatroyd! :blink::P

 

7 hours ago, Joe Swenson said:

I know right?  I was excited to see Davide Sora sanding away to even out the blocks and rib structure using the same technique I use!! I thought this whole time it was cheating. But now... well... :rolleyes:

I know, but I am aware that for this I will go to the makers' hell, we'll see you there Joe.... :lol:

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4 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

 

I know, but I am aware that for this I will go to the makers' hell, we'll see you there Joe.... :lol:

Too funny!!!  :lol:  

But seriously. Its whatever gets the result you need.... Right?

I checked my flea market cello (posted on this a few years ago) Rib height is 119 mm  bottom block and corner blocks and 116 mm at neck block.  And looking from the side it appears all the taper in in the neck. The back plate looks dead flat.

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2 hours ago, Joe Swenson said:

Too funny!!!  :lol:  

But seriously. Its whatever gets the result you need.... Right?

I checked my flea market cello (posted on this a few years ago) Rib height is 119 mm  bottom block and corner blocks and 116 mm at neck block.  And looking from the side it appears all the taper in in the neck. The back plate looks dead flat.

Honestly, in cello it is difficult to understand the extent of this taper and if it were only on the top or even in the back, too much distortion is there in old cellos to be really sure.

Anyway, looking at my notes, not all my instruments have this taper because it is not what they taught me at school. I started to make the two staggered planes starting from the upper corners from 2003 "only", when I start going deeper into the study of the original cremonese making method acquiring the necessary knowledge to build up my own ideas to be able to question the teachings of the masters of the school and what indeed all the other makers did in those times, at least here in Cremona. It is not easy to get out of patterns that seem to be the consolidated tradition, but often people do things only by repetition without asking too many questions and sometimes going against the tide is interesting and rewards the daring....:)

But everyone chooses his own way and as far as the use of the sandpaper plane is concerned, I chose mine, going against the tide compared to Stradivari who certainly did not use it. Even if sometimes it may not seem so, I'm not an extremist of the old fashion and for this I deserve to burn in the flames of hell...;)

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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2020 at 1:40 PM, martin swan said:

The neck angle in relation to what?

Sorry, I meant fingerboard angle. Or even more accurately, since the fingerboard is slightly bowed: string angle.

So my question is; Does the 2mm rib taper on the belly relate to a 2mm lower arching height, or the generally lower arches of the 'Golden Period' relative to his earlier instruments?

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This is from 1690. I think the taper is present. The numbers alone leaves much for interpretation. It’s easier to see with full size photographs and a straight edge. 
84FFD40C-6B95-48A1-A082-4C3BAC7ECE1F.thumb.jpeg.8f4a96d684c6404dc14d3df559c9842a.jpeg

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On 2/8/2020 at 6:38 PM, Davide Sora said:

But everyone chooses his own way and as far as the use of the sandpaper plane is concerned, I chose mine, going against the tide compared to Stradivari who certainly did not use it. Even if sometimes it may not seem so, I'm not an extremist of the old fashion and for this I deserve to burn in the flames of hell...;)

To be completely honest, I worked in the same building with the American Case Company for many years. They had a disk sander which was approximately four feet in diameter, removed material very quickly, and the "industrial grade" abrasives left so little abrasive debris in the end grain of the blocks, that taking the final .5mm or so using a plane was a breeze, without rendering the plane blade dull very quickly. Embedded abrasives can be a bit problematic, when followed by fine-edged cutting tools.

Now, while it as not as fast as the monster disk sander, I find it acceptable to hand-plane as much a 4mm off blocks and ribs when the rib assembly is complete, rather than try to micromanage the block heights in the first place. But it took me lots of practice, and some mistakes to get there, with a plane alone.

This isn't to take anything away for Sora's very valuable posts.

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54 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

This is from 1690. I think the taper is present. The numbers alone leaves much for interpretation. It’s easier to see with full size photographs and a straight edge. 
84FFD40C-6B95-48A1-A082-4C3BAC7ECE1F.thumb.jpeg.8f4a96d684c6404dc14d3df559c9842a.jpeg

Hmm, dunno bout them numbers?

What about the 1679 'Hellier' It has the taper and it's well before the 'Golden Period'? It also appears to have a low arch

https://www.roger-hargrave.de/PDF/Artikel/Strad/Artikel_1987_09_Stradivari_Antonio_Hellier_PDF.pdf

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=40237&l=yes

https://www.alamy.com/hellier-stradivarius-image184233735.html

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1 hour ago, sospiri said:

Sorry, I meant fingerboard angle. Or even more accurately, since the fingerboard is slightly bowed: string angle.

So my question is; Does the 2mm rib taper on the belly relate to a 2mm lower arching height, or the generally lower arches of the 'Golden Period' relative to his earlier instruments?

The circles inscribed on the form indicates the rib taper.

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22 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

The circles inscribed on the form indicates the rib taper.

Inscribed on the mold as Roger Hargrave suggests? Strad was using inches so the ribs would presumably be 1 1/4 which is exactly 31.75, but how much shrinkage if any has happened? Do ribs shrink much across the grain?

The neck root ribs heights seem to vary.  I'm suggesting it's possibly related to arching height, so 2mm taper for a 14mm belly arch?

 

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1 hour ago, Michael_Molnar said:

The circles inscribed on the form indicates the rib taper.

They might, since they do happen to coincide pretty well with the upper and lower block heights.

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