Ex J.S. BACH

[Oblivian]

https://www.bromptons.co/news/is-this-the-ex-j-s-bach 

Could it be?...

[jacobsaunders]

The handwriting on the illustrated label certainly doesn't look like handwriting from the begining of the 18th C. I hope Blank Face will comment on that

[Blank face]

4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

The handwriting on the illustrated label certainly doesn't look like handwriting from the begining of the 18th C. I hope Blank Face will comment on that

After some comparisons I found that a very similar looking Hoffmann label is pictured in the Zoebisch book as part of the 19th century "Tapetendruck" printed sheets for signing the usual.

OTOH there are many handwritten documents from nearly the same period and region available showing a very different style of handwriting, hardly to decipher for contemporary readers. These are very similar to each other and for example also similar to the well known handwritten Jacobus Stainer in Absam labels. The photo at the Brompton website isn't so highly resoluted that it would be possible to tell something in particular about the used paper or ink, so everybody might decide for him/herself.

That's how one of these period documents looks like, the 1716/17 Innungsbuch from Klingenthal:

 

[deans]

Label aside, does the instrument look right? Definitely cool.

 

[PhilipKT]

In the Schweitzer biography of Bach, among his assets inventoried after his death were two Stainer violins,” one in bad condition” but no mention of a gamba.

I’ve  always wondered if those Stainer violins still exist and if whoever owns them is aware of the magical connection.

[Three13]

That's some magnificent commercial puffery, if I've ever read any. Based upon Brompton's logic, you could assert that ANY Hoffmann instrument lacking provenance after the quoted document and before Bach's death "could quite easily be the instrument left by Hoffmann to his friend Johann Sebastian Bach."

I'd be ashamed of myself if I marketed a historical object this way.

 

[PhilipKT]

4 hours ago, Three13 said:

That's some magnificent commercial puffery, if I've ever read any. Based upon Brompton's logic, you could assert that ANY Hoffmann instrument lacking provenance after the quoted document and before Bach's death "could quite easily be the instrument left by Hoffmann to his friend Johann Sebastian Bach."

I'd be ashamed of myself if I marketed a historical object this way.

 

“This widget was made within 50 years of Bach’s death, and within 50 miles of his house.

Now, we are not seeing it WAS Bach’s....But if you want to bid a whole lot of money for it, we won’t stop you.”

[jacobsaunders]

On 1/31/2020 at 2:11 PM, Blank face said:

After some comparisons I found that a very similar looking Hoffmann label is pictured in the Zoebisch book as part of the 19th century "Tapetendruck" printed sheets for signing the usual.

 

 

I posted the page of the Zöbisch book with the Hoffmann label here

I find Gambas are really difficult to authenticate, since they don't have corners, scrolls, predictable corner blocks or often f holes etc. so one is up sh_t creek if there is no label. Since this one evidently has a 19th.C. Markneukirchen facimile label, one can only seriously say that it is a nice old Gamba. Even PhilipKT's assertion that it was made within 50 miles of Bachs house, or within  50 years of his death is, by closer inspection, baseless.

[Violadamore]

6 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I posted the page of the Zöbisch book with the Hoffmann label here

I find Gambas are really difficult to authenticate, since they don't have corners, scrolls, predictable corner blocks or often f holes etc. so one is up sh_t creek if there is no label. Since this one evidently has a 19th.C. Markneukirchen facimile label, one can only seriously say that it is a nice old Gamba. Even PhilipKT's assertion that it was made within 50 miles of Bachs house, or within  50 years of his death is, by closer inspection, baseless.

PhillipKT, add a "sarcasm warning" next time. 

[PhilipKT]

37 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

PhillipKT, add a "sarcasm warning" next time. 

:-)

it should be reasonably clear. But yes, sarcasm.

[jacobsaunders]

2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

PhillipKT, add a "sarcasm warning" next time. 

What makes you think I took him seriously in the first place?

[Ben Hebbert]

That’s not the worst marketing I’ve read by a long shot. I really have no problems with this being a Hoffmans - the soubdholes, particularly the upper circles are typical of the several other Hoffmans in museums (although there are other German makers who followed a similar idea).

Any Hoffmans instrument has a legitimate interest for his associations with J.S. Bach, but that is enough that need be said. 

[jacobsaunders]

14 hours ago, Ben Hebbert said:

I really have no problems with this being a Hoffmans - the soubdholes, particularly the upper circles are typical of the several other Hoffmans in museums (although there are other German makers who followed a similar idea)

Is that not rather meager to authenticate an important old instrument? All I could find when I looked was a museum in Leipzig, which proudly displays much the same bogus label from the late 19^th C. https://www.leipzig.de/freizeit-kultur-und-tourismus/veranstaltungen-und-termine/eventsingle/event/ausstellung-pomposa-geigen-fuer-bach-die-werkstatt-hoffmann-in-leipzig/ and a viola, which I would asses as coming from the late 18^th C Viennese area (a bit like Fichtl Krems) from a German violin dealers site. Presumably his has the same bogus label as the others, which I wrote about here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330195-johann-adam-sch%C3%B6nfelder/&do=findComment&comment=621046 If you know of others, displayed in museums, it would be very nice of you to provide any links where I could see one

[deans]

5 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

important old instrument?

Well at least you think its "important" (another over-used auction descriptor)

I dont think there's a gamba player in the world who wouldn't want to own this one, Bach or no Bach. And there's a fair number of gamba players out there.

[jacobsaunders]

29 minutes ago, deans said:

Well at least you think its "important" (another over-used auction descriptor)

I dont think there's a gamba player in the world who wouldn't want to own this one, Bach or no Bach. And there's a fair number of gamba players out there.

If somebody pays for Bach's instrument, they probably want Bach's instrument

[deans]

21 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

If somebody pays for Bach's instrument

What might you think that price would be? What really are the stakes here? 

 

[jacobsaunders]

13 minutes ago, deans said:

What might you think that price would be? What really are the stakes here? 

 

Probably a lot less than Michael Jackson

[deans]

I'll agree with you on that. 

[Hempel]

In 1737 Hoffmann sued Johann Paul Zincke over a building.  The complaint was likely drafted by a lawyer, but Hoffmann signed it in at least 3 places in the document.  His signature appears on p. 10 (and on other pages).

https://opendata.leipzig.de/en/dataset/johann-paul-zincke-wird-von-johann-christian-hoffmann-wegen-eines-nachteiligen-baues-verklagt/resource/2f6b4919-2110-4261-9c56-71ef5239ad10?inner_span=True

 

In Bach Museum Leipzig there is a Viola d'Amore with similar handwriting to the theorbo in the Grassi Museum that Jacob linked a few posts up.  Notice that "Christian" on this VdA ticket is spelled out in full, not contracted like the one in Grassi (meaning it's not the merely another photo of the same label).

 

https://www.bachmuseumleipzig.de/en/bach-museum/tour-our-permanent-exhibition

 

The Brompton's label is not likely to be authentic but to dismiss manuscript labels of instruments in museums and signatures in archive documents based on Zoebisch "tapendruck" citation and "incorrect period handwriting" is an extraordinary claim.

 

I would refer people requiring stronger evidence for Hoffmann handwriting or instrument characteristics to Klaus Martius, since he and a few other co-authors published a book on the Hoffmann family 5 years ago.