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Michael H

Fake label... remove it?

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If we took the labels out of everything that's been deliberately mislabelled it would leave labels in a very small percentage of violin family instruments! I agree with Brad, its much easier to refer to the 'Ceruti' or the 'Strad' when working or comparing even if both are from Markneukirchen.

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Also, fake labeling has been around for ages, for better or for worse. In an old instrument it's part of the history.

We have two cellos - a real Francois Chanot and a fake Georges Adolph Chanot - and wouldn't dream of removing the fake label. We also wouldn't dream of passing it off on a sucker as the real thing, though I suspect that a luthier in New Haven did just that in the 50s.

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2 hours ago, Three13 said:

Let's just get a bunch of labels that say "THE USUAL" or "BOG STANDARD" and be done with it...

;)

What if the instruement bears fake label of living maker or recently passed? Of course the typical crap like "made by Antonius Stradvarius..." are clearly fake and hardly can be part of illegal activity but somewhat convincing copy of valuable recent maker could be different story...

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There is something about a label inside a violin that people like.  First thing everyone does is pick up the violin and peak inside.  To the uninitiated, no label is a head scratcher.  

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On 1/31/2020 at 8:57 AM, HoGo said:

What if the instruement bears fake label of living maker or recently passed? Of course the typical crap like "made by Antonius Stradvarius..." are clearly fake and hardly can be part of illegal activity but somewhat convincing copy of valuable recent maker could be different story...

I have had several experiences of my fake labels put into violins not made by me, even if they were never convincing copies but anyway violins hand made by some "maker" who decided to use my name to sell to unsuspecting customers. When it happened that they contacted me sending photos of the violins to ask for a certificate or simple information or some repair I informed them that they had been scammed and I always said to remove the label because I think it's the fair thing to do, it is a real scam that must not be perpetuated. If they had brought me the violin I would have done it personally and for sure, but this never happened and I fear that these violins with the fake label are still around.

Fortunately I have always kept a photographic archive of all the instruments that I have made, so I am able to demonstrate with certainty their authenticity or otherwise (even in a court if necessary) and more recently I have also registered my brand "Davide Sora" in different countries to discourage fraudsters  and have the legal means to eventually pursue them.

 

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I don't worry about silly labels but I tend to remove labels which have the potential to be misleading - not when I sell the instrument but further down the road.

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I believe a known fake label should be removed! Anyone that sells any thing with a known fake label is perpetrating a fraud. Just like passing known counterfeit money.

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13 minutes ago, Okawbow said:

I believe a known fake label should be removed! Anyone that sells any thing with a known fake label is perpetrating a fraud. Just like passing known counterfeit money.

This is kind of my thinking. I can point out the apocryphal label upon sale, but what if someone else sells it in the future using the label? 

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I am less inclined to this approach of pulling labels since a friend of mine refused to remove an "obviously fake" label of a non-existent maker from an instrument he was working on. A couple of years later documentary evidence of that maker turned up, then subsequently just three of his instruments (identical) with (identical) original labels. . . . because, I guess, all the "fake" labels had been removed from his work by people who knew better. Since then I have seen a couple of similar incidents.

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On 1/31/2020 at 12:32 AM, Three13 said:

Let's just get a bunch of labels that say "THE USUAL" or "BOG STANDARD" and be done with it...

;)

As added repair labels, sure.  I feel that might catch on around here.  Include tha line, "As seen on Maestronet" :lol:

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On 1/30/2020 at 9:41 PM, Tom Fid said:

Also, fake labeling has been around for ages, for better or for worse. In an old instrument it's part of the history.

We have two cellos - a real Francois Chanot and a fake Georges Adolph Chanot - and wouldn't dream of removing the fake label. We also wouldn't dream of passing it off on a sucker as the real thing, though I suspect that a luthier in New Haven did just that in the 50s.

got pictures of your fake GA Chanot? I have one which may be right but am interested if some one was using his labels as a regular thing.

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I don't have decent shots of the cello handy (I'm on a trip), but this is the label.

label.thumb.jpg.10a8c4a1f7035adaf339745397d66bf7.jpg

I think there are several reasons to suspect the label itself, but also I think the instrument isn't a match. Great cello though. I'd be interested to hear if there are similar fakes around.

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7 hours ago, Tom Fid said:

I think there are several reasons to suspect the label itself, but also I think the instrument isn't a match. Great cello though. I'd be interested to hear if there are similar fakes around.

Will be interesting to see what you do have, when you can post some pictures of the cello.

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On 2/1/2020 at 8:49 PM, Davide Sora said:

I have had several experiences of my fake labels put into violins not made by me, even if they were never convincing copies but anyway violins hand made by some "maker" who decided to use my name to sell to unsuspecting customers. When it happened that they contacted me sending photos of the violins to ask for a certificate or simple information or some repair I informed them that they had been scammed and I always said to remove the label because I think it's the fair thing to do, it is a real scam that must not be perpetuated. If they had brought me the violin I would have done it personally and for sure, but this never happened and I fear that these violins with the fake label are still around.

Fortunately I have always kept a photographic archive of all the instruments that I have made, so I am able to demonstrate with certainty their authenticity or otherwise (even in a court if necessary) and more recently I have also registered my brand "Davide Sora" in different countries to discourage fraudsters  and have the legal means to eventually pursue them.

 

I just mark a few spots on the inside of the box with my bow stamp, it's small and unobtrusive especially without ink or soot but leaves a definitive maker's mark thats hard to argue with. If you are creative with the stamp placements then forgers will not be able to fake it since they would not know to look for it.

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8 minutes ago, Mampara said:

I just mark a few spots on the inside of the box with my bow stamp, it's small and unobtrusive especially without ink or soot but leaves a definitive maker's mark thats hard to argue with. If you are creative with the stamp placements then forgers will not be able to fake it since they would not know to look for it.

The problem is not mine, I am perfectly able to establish the authenticity of my instruments without a shadow of a doubt even without the marks, because I have the photographs and the wood grain is like a fingerprint. The problem lies with unsuspecting buyers who don't know that they only see the fake label

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On 2/1/2020 at 11:44 AM, Violadamore said:

As added repair labels, sure.  I feel that might catch on around here.  Include tha line, "As seen on Maestronet" :lol:

I just saw that Addie made these:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxwZXRlcmtndmlvbGluc3xneDo5Y2MyMjhiZWRjMmI2OWU

I regret arriving here too late to get to know him.

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