T2 Auction Listing

[_Alex]

I'm looking online at some of the listings at the latest T2 auction., not to buy anything, but to try to educate myself a bit more about the process. In particular I'm trying to learn the art of reading 'between the lines' for some of these listings. 

For example: https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199224320&cpid=3607592960&filter_key=

It says 'Labeled, "Peter Baltzerson, No: 101 Boston made 1921.' and has a slightly (but not very) low estimate for a Baltzerson. 

Does this mean:

1: They think it maybe is made by Baltzerson, but they don't know for sure/can't prove it.

or

2: They think it isn't made by Baltzerson, but are just pointing out the obvious fact that it has a label. 

Any thoughts are appreciated!

 

 

 

[GeorgeH]

T2 auction listings do not claim or guarantee attribution or country of origin for any instruments.

[_Alex]

3 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

T2 auction listings do not claim or guarantee attribution or country of origin for any instruments.

But...again reading between the lines, does that mean that if it DID have certain attribution, it would not be in the T2 auction? Or, is this level of instrument just not important enough that they don't care?

[GeorgeH]

16 minutes ago, _Alex said:

But...again reading between the lines, does that mean that if it DID have certain attribution, it would not be in the T2 auction? Or, is this level of instrument just not important enough that they don't care?

Could be, but not necessarily. An instrument could need repairs that the consigner did not want to do or another condition might otherwise disqualify it from the regular auction.

In the T2 auction, the buyer needs to be extra beware!

By the way, read the description of the condition reports very carefully to understand what they do and do not cover.

[GeorgeH]

Here is the condition report for that lot:

Back: minor cracks at button, cracks at end block, minor edge cracks.
Ribs: cracks at end button, cracks in lower treble bout.
Top: cracks at saddle, various repaired and unrepaired cracks, soundpost crack.
Head: chips at E-peg, chip adjacent to A-peg (treble side). 
Varnish: surface wear, in good condition.

Now you can see why it is in T2.

[_Alex]

8 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Here is the condition report for that lot:

Back: minor cracks at button, cracks at end block, minor edge cracks.
Ribs: cracks at end button, cracks in lower treble bout.
Top: cracks at saddle, various repaired and unrepaired cracks, soundpost crack.
Head: chips at E-peg, chip adjacent to A-peg (treble side). 
Varnish: surface wear, in good condition.

Now you can see why it is in T2.

Ah...I see... I didn't get that far yet. Soundpost crack will do it every time. Thanks!

[duane88]

2 hours ago, _Alex said:

Ah...I see... I didn't get that far yet. Soundpost crack will do it every time. Thanks!

For a dead maker, a post crack in the top is just another repair, provided it hasn't been buggered up beyond salvage.

I have one friend/client who I have to remind, with every T2 Auction, that everything in T2 is there for a reason. Your job:find the reason and decide if you can live with that issue.

Aside from it being in T2, "Labeled" means exactly that. Even if it were in the regular Tarisio Auction, it would mean the same thing.

Looks like a nice enough fiddle. Your task is to find enough photos, or real examples, of Balterson instruments for comparison to decide whether it is as labeled, or a nice German violin with a spurious label.

 

[_Alex]

6 minutes ago, duane88 said:

For a dead maker, a post crack in the top is just another repair, provided it hasn't been buggered up beyond salvage.

I agree...but it definitely accounts for a grand or two off the estimate.

[deans]

For someone looking for a specific maker, a well repaired spc might not be a big deal. Sometimes it can be many years between buying opportunities 

[Tom Fid]

So what's the rationale for requiring the user to explicitly request a condition report? It seems like a recipe for disgruntled customers, which you wouldn't want, even if it's their own fault.

[deans]

36 minutes ago, Tom Fid said:

So what's the rationale for requiring the user to explicitly request a condition report?

Good question. They do make it easy though, once you're registered.

[duane88]

From Tarisio's website. Notice the last statement in the first paragraph. They want to tell you what they see, but you must evaluate the condition yourself. I have had a few surprises, but that just lets me know what they see and what they do not see, in general, so that informs my reading of the condition reports. 

 

Condition Report Terminology

 

The following is a guide to terms used in Tarisio’s condition reports. Tarisio’s condition reports are not intended to be thorough and detailed condition surveys and do not necessarily address all of the potential issues referenced below; Tarisio makes no representation or warranty regarding these reports.

Instruments

Acoustic Patch: A veneer of wood, usually maple, inset or superficially applied to the inside back of the instrument. This term is used when no crack or damage is evident.

Bass-bar Crack: A crack under the bass foot of the bridge.

Belly Patch: An interior patch to the center bouts of the top or back as specified.

Button Graft: New wood grafted to the back and shaped to form a replacement button.

Check: A partial separation of wood fibers generally occurring across the rings of annual growth and usually as a result of uneven drying.

Cheek Graft: Replacement of the exterior of the peg box walls with new wood.

Craquelure: Texture to the surface of the varnish.

Crown: A crescent shaped repair to the top of the button, typically made from ebony.

Edge Crack: Small cracks at the perimeter of the top or back of an instrument.

Edge Doubling (half-edged): New wood of similar structure and grain to the original is laminated under the original edge of the top or back.

Filler: Wood or synthetic putty used to fill repaired or damaged areas.

Graft: A repair consisting of inset new wood that is visible from the exterior.

Grain Reversal: The apparent reversal of light and dark grain lines due to varnish absorption by the wood or as a result of being pressed excessively against a cast to correct arching deformation.

Linen: Natural fibre fabric used to reinforce crack repairs internally.

Patch: Unless specified as a through-patch, this is strictly an interior repair to replace cracked or weakened areas with inset pieces of structurally sound wood.

Peg Bushing: Peg holes are filled with new wood and then reamed to fit new pegs reinforcing peg cracks or filling excessively large holes.

Pitting to the Varnish: Overheating of the instrument causes bubbling in the varnish, which results in pits forming as the fragile bubbles break and fall away.

Ribs Raised: New wood added to the edge of the ribs to add height to the sides of the instrument.

Scroll Graft (or Volute graft):  Where the original scroll is grafted onto a new replacement pegbox. Note: the term Grafted Head indicates that only the neck has been replaced but the pegbox is original to the volute.

Soundpost Crack: A crack that extends under the treble foot of the bridge on the top or in the soundpost area of the back.

Spalting: Wood coloration caused by fungi during tree growth.

Stud or Cleat: A small usually square piece of wood overlaid on a repaired crack to reinforce it from the inside.

Through-patch: A patch which is let in so as to be visible from the outside of the instrument. Care is taken to match the original structure and grain of the wood being replaced.

Wood Defect (or Wood Flaw): Original erratic grain patterns, abscesses, knots, or other irregularities.

Worm Damage: Visible as holes or curved lines, caused by worms and sometimes causing structural damage.

 

Bows

Butt Graft: Graft where the end of the stick meets the button.

Cheval: Replacement of the upper section of the frog above the eye.

Facets Replaced: Grafts to the handle intended to restore worn facets.

Grafted Under the Lapping: A graft underneath the lapping (or winding) to replace the handle.

Handle Bushed: The screw hole is filled with pernambuco or similar and then re-drilled.

Lift: A partial separation of wood fibers which occurs where the grain of the wood runs non-parallel to the stick.

Pin Crack: A crack behind the head which forms where a pin is located usually as a result of corrosion.

Spline: A thin piece of wood, fiber, or ivory used as reinforcement when repairing a broken head.

Wind shake (or jerse): A wood-flaw caused during tree growth, visible as a dark line in the wood.

[_Alex]

49 minutes ago, Tom Fid said:

So what's the rationale for requiring the user to explicitly request a condition report? It seems like a recipe for disgruntled customers, which you wouldn't want, even if it's their own fault.

Agreed. If they want it to not be out on the 'public web', then they could just hide it for people who are not logged in. Maybe they are doing some sort of rudimentary tracking of who is interested in what lots? But it does seem like a mistake. I, for one, would have expected a soundpost crack, repaired or otherwise, to have been mentioned prominently in the description. Plus the condition report isn't even 100% clear whether the crack is repaired or not. My reading of the report suggests it is not, but the photo suggests maybe it is? The crack looks repaired, plus the instrument is set up, which would be irresponsible for a violin with an 'active' soundpost crack?

[duane88]

Just because it has a bridge and strings on it doesn't mean that it is up to tension. You do have to be logged in to your account in order to request a condition report. You can also ask questions, and they are very good about having you call up and asking a question about a fiddle. I would expect that the closer you get to the end of the auction them more frantic things get.

As far as whether it has been repaired or not, I have seen my share of fiddles with a post patch in place that needed a "revised" repair (as in the one that was done last doesn't fit or didn't hold), so having them tell you that a patch is in place doesn't tell you much and if it has a cleat above and below without a patch, that might be all that a tight crack needs for now.

 

I got a French fiddle from Skinner. Pics showed an intact fiddle. When it arrived it was in 5 pieces. They had staged it to be intact for the photos. I would have rather seen it in pieces in the pictures, but my other auction purchases from Skinner-not violins-have shown me that you must be dilligent in asking because they need to sell, and the better it looks on this side of the computer screen, the more likely it is to be sold.

[PhilipKT]

A couple years ago, I bought a perfect condition Halligan bow at T2. “Stamped ‘Halligan”

The next Tarisio had a “contemporary bow by Joseph Halligan” bow, and I bought that one too. Both outstanding sticks, apparently unplayed. Both completely genuine according to Joseph Halligan himself( I called him to ask) 

I don’t know why one was offered in T2 as “Stamped ‘ Halligan’”, and the other was sold at Tarisio as “Joseph Halligan” when each was in perfect condition and obviously excellent quality and so similar it was obvious they were by the same hand( and a call could have verified them as genuine anyway.)

oh well.

[_Alex]

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

A couple years ago, I bought a perfect condition Halligan bow at T2. “Stamped ‘Halligan”

The next Tarisio had a “contemporary bow by Joseph Halligan” bow, and I bought that one too. Both outstanding sticks, apparently unplayed. Both completely genuine according to Joseph Halligan himself( I called him to ask) 

I don’t know why one was offered in T2 as “Stamped ‘ Halligan’”, and the other was sold at Tarisio as “Joseph Halligan” when each was in perfect condition and obviously excellent quality and so similar it was obvious they were by the same hand( and a call could have verified them as genuine anyway.)

oh well.

Interesting, good to know, thanks.

[GeorgeH]

6 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

I don’t know why one was offered in T2 as “Stamped ‘ Halligan’”, and the other was sold at Tarisio as “Joseph Halligan”

Maybe the first seller was in a hurry to sell it so she put it in the T2. T2 auctions simply won't make attributions regardless of how authentic the item is.

Was there much of a price difference in the end?

[jacobsaunders]

One must always convince oneself of any attribution, regardless of whichever Tbay format or other auctions house. I wouldn’t take to much notice of any assurances anyway.

[scordatura]

Always go to the auction in person and/or have someone that has expertise go for you. Otherwise caveat emptor!

[deans]

Keep in mind that when you shop for old violins at a retail shop, they rarely reveal all of the warts when they first hand you the fiddle. You have to  ask, sometimes pointedly. Sometimes condition issues are not obvious.

[TarisioAuctions]

On 1/26/2020 at 11:12 PM, Tom Fid said:

So what's the rationale for requiring the user to explicitly request a condition report? It seems like a recipe for disgruntled customers, which you wouldn't want, even if it's their own fault.

Hi Tom,

We designed our system to keep a record of everyone who has requested a condition report for each lot so we can send updates in the rare event that a report changes after it has been posted. If we revise a condition report it’s essential that we notify anyone bidding who is using it as guidance.

Hope this helps!

[Tom Fid]

On 1/29/2020 at 10:31 AM, TarisioAuctions said:

We designed our system to keep a record of everyone who has requested a condition report for each lot so we can send updates in the rare event that a report changes after it has been posted. If we revise a condition report it’s essential that we notify anyone bidding who is using it as guidance.

Makes sense. Do active bidders get the same notice? (I guess either way, you'd be nuts to bid without getting the condition report first anyway.)