gmergan Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 I am new on this site, what do you think of the following Viola? Can it really be made bye Gaibisso. Thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted January 14, 2020 Report Share Posted January 14, 2020 "presumed" by whom? From the photographs it would seem that he learned the trade in Germany. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmergan Posted January 14, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2020 Seller is German indeed. I have a slight feeling that the label is fake. That's why i mentionned "presumed". Do you have an idea who could have build the viola or in what region? When? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmergan Posted January 14, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2020 Body of instrument is 40,2 cm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted January 15, 2020 Report Share Posted January 15, 2020 This is a Gaibisso https://www.martinswanviolins.com/g-b-gaibisso-violin-1949/ Chalk and cheese! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClefLover Posted January 15, 2020 Report Share Posted January 15, 2020 4 hours ago, martin swan said: This is a Gaibisso https://www.martinswanviolins.com/g-b-gaibisso-violin-1949/ Chalk and cheese! Chalk and cheese? That’s a new one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmergan Posted January 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) The scroll seems very similar to a viola of Gaibisso sold bye skinnerinc.com in 2010. See: https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2520B/lots/644 => If the instrument is not a Gaibisso, What could it be? Edited January 16, 2020 by gmergan photo added Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three13 Posted January 15, 2020 Report Share Posted January 15, 2020 I don't know where that background comes from, but my experience has been that it doesn't bode well for authenticity - is this one of the usual internet sales outfits or an auction company? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmergan Posted January 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2020 The photos i posted came from online auctionplatform catawiki and the viola has been sold for 900€. The viola on scinnerinc.com has been sold for 10000$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romberg flat Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 On 1/15/2020 at 9:55 AM, martin swan said: This is a Gaibisso https://www.martinswanviolins.com/g-b-gaibisso-violin-1949/ Chalk and cheese! Quite "chalk and cheese". According to description it's much longer that OP viola: Dimensions: length of back 35.8cm, stop 130/196cm No way the UK get used to the metric system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 Haha we do our best ... thanks for pointing it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted January 16, 2020 Report Share Posted January 16, 2020 5 hours ago, romberg flat said: Dimensions: length of back 35.8cm, stop 130/196cm It's just a question of point or komma. 13,0/19,6 cm =0,13/0,196 m = 0,00013/0,000196 km Hmm, have I all the zeros right now? More complicated to write it in lightyears.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmergan Posted January 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 I still try to find out who could be the violinmaker, or at least at what region it could have been build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 3 hours ago, gmergan said: I still try to find out who could be the violinmaker, or at least at what region it could have been build. It was told before. A workshop in the Markneukirchen/Schönbach region, made in division of labour in the 1920ies or 30ies. Neatly work, so completely idiotic to ruin it with a fake label. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 8 hours ago, Blank face said: It was told before. A workshop in the Markneukirchen/Schönbach region, made in division of labour in the 1920ies or 30ies. Neatly work, so completely idiotic to ruin it with a fake label. I wonder how many good instruments have been spoiled by trying to turn them into better instruments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three13 Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, PhilipKT said: I wonder how many good instruments have been spoiled by trying to turn them into better instruments? How many great instruments have been inadvertently downgraded for the same reason (like the misattributed Nemessanyi that turned out to be a Del Gesu from 2015)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, PhilipKT said: I wonder how many good instruments have been spoiled by trying to turn them into better instruments? Spoiled by whom? A ) DIYers? B ) Self-identified experts? C ) Real experts, but following whatever detrimental trend that was in vogue at the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Three13 said: How many great instruments have been inadvertently downgraded for the same reason (like the misattributed Nemessanyi that turned out to be a Del Gesu from 2015)? I remember that, but I cannot imagine the logic behind passing off a violin as something less than it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, Rue said: Spoiled by whom? A ) DIYers? B ) Self-identified experts? C ) Real experts, but following whatever detrimental current trend that was in vogue? Well, my friend has a perfect condition Rovatti cello that was in the process of being turned into a fake something else when the perpetrator died. He removed the top, scraped off the label, carefully scraped away all the cleats on the center seam, put the top back on and was going to strip the varnish and revarnish it before designating it something older and more valuable. It would’ve been far better to leave it as it was rather than attempting to turn it into something that it is not. That’s what I’m referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three13 Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, PhilipKT said: I remember that, but I cannot imagine the logic behind passing off a violin as something less than it is. The head had been replaced on that one, and I imagine that whoever called it a Nemessanyi was trying their best (I think it had been pegged as a Nemessanyi in the early 20th Century). Imagine how hard it would be to go out on a limb to attribute a previously unknown Del Gesu? Particularly if you weren't the owner... The problem with being an expert is that it makes a lot of sense to err on the side of conservatism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, Three13 said: The head had been replaced on that one, and I imagine that whoever called it a Nemessanyi was trying their best (I think it had been pegged as a Nemessanyi in the early 20th Century). Imagine how hard it would be to go out on a limb to attribute a previously unknown Del Gesu? Particularly if you weren't the owner... The problem with being an expert is that it makes a lot of sense to err on the side of conservatism. Well that’s an honest mistake, made by someone who’s trying to be careful, I’m talking about doing it deliberately. In either direction. How many Francesco Strads are claimed as Antonio’s? All of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three13 Posted January 17, 2020 Report Share Posted January 17, 2020 Just now, PhilipKT said: Well that’s an honest mistake, made by someone who’s trying to be careful, I’m talking about doing it deliberately. In either direction. How many Francesco Strads are claimed as Antonio’s? All of them? In that case, I think you can make the legitimate argument that Francesco was working in Antonio's workshop, but I guess it's the corollary to late Filius Andreae cellos becoming Del Gesus because they show the son's hand and should be worth more as such... I love the subjectivity of attribution in the violin world. It keeps it endlessly interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-G Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 hour ago, PhilipKT said: I remember that, but I cannot imagine the logic behind passing off a violin as something less than it is. Well, Huberman's stolen Strad comes to mind, disguised as a cheap violin for decades while the thief played it on gigs. There could well be other cases like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three13 Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, J-G said: Well, Huberman's stolen Strad comes to mind, disguised as a cheap violin for decades while the thief played it on gigs. There could well be other cases like that. Whenever I read about that theft and the subsequent trial, I can't believe how atrocious the thief and his wife were. It's worth noting that she married him AFTER he was convicted of molesting her granddaughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 11 hours ago, PhilipKT said: I wonder how many good instruments have been spoiled by trying to turn them into better instruments? I've got a handful of really rather nice 20c German and French instruments where a shadow of an (presumably original) label is still visible under the usually stupid modern Italian label. So annoying. In a particularly crass example I was lucky and found the original (German) makers signature against the inside top. After removal of the fake Poggi label the violin is now for sale on consignment north of $10k for what it is. As a fake Poggi only a fraction of that value may have been achievable; and a reputable shop would have been reluctant to take it on altogether. Another example was a fake Bernardel I had, which turned out to be a FA Brueckner, certainly worth a lot more than an obviously fake Bernardel… I really really don't understand why people shoot themselves in the foot like that so many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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