Jacobus Stainer Violin Genuine or Copy?

[thanos]

Hello I have a violin in my hands which says inside Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope Oenipontum 17.

Any chance to be genuine and not copy? Thanks.

 

[Dwight Brown]

Just a copy I'm afraid.  I have held a real Stainer in my hands and I've seen a couple more. There are folks here that have seen many. I'm sure they will be by.

DLB

[Brad Dorsey]

2 hours ago, thanos said:

...Any chance to be genuine and not copy?...

No.

[Blank face]

3 hours ago, thanos said:

 genuine and not copy?

Neither nor. These are massproduced violins from the early 20th century bearing also massproduced prints (most time not even facsimiles) with Stainers name without any resemblance to real instruments by this maker. Same applies usually to other instruments of the same origin with Stradivari, Amati, Guarneri, Bergonzi etc. etc. labels. I would appreciate if people would stop calling this artifacts "copies".

[Dwight Brown]

9 hours ago, Blank face said:

Neither nor. These are massproduced violins from the early 20th century bearing also massproduced prints (most time not even facsimiles) with Stainers name without any resemblance to real instruments by this maker. Same applies usually to other instruments of the same origin with Stradivari, Amati, Guarneri, Bergonzi etc. etc. labels. I would appreciate if people would stop calling this artifacts "copies".

This is exactly correct. I couldn’t come up with the right words. Well said.

DLB

[thanos]

Many many thanks to "Blank Face" for his explanation concerning my question. Thank you.

[deans]

BF is 100% correct, its not a copy of Stainer. But it has features that 19th century tradesman thought were Stainer features. One could have guessed, without looking inside, that it had a Stainer label.

[Gean]

I would like to know how much is the value of a violin like this.

[Gean]

 

On 1/12/2020 at 6:07 PM, Blank face said:

Neither nor. These are massproduced violins from the early 20th century bearing also massproduced prints (most time not even facsimiles) with Stainers name without any resemblance to real instruments by this maker. Same applies usually to other instruments of the same origin with Stradivari, Amati, Guarneri, Bergonzi etc. etc. labels. I would appreciate if people would stop calling this artifacts "copies".

Could you tell me please which is the value of a violin like this in your opinion?

[Wood Butcher]

16 hours ago, Gean said:

I would like to know how much is the value of a violin like this.

Very little, they aren’t high quality instruments, and were made in huge numbers.

[Rue]

17 hours ago, Gean said:

 

Could you tell me please which is the value of a violin like this in your opinion?

Nobody can give a precise value without seeing the instrument in question because of all the variables. I'll go out on a limb and suggest $200 if it's playable as is.

Less if it needs work.

[Blank face]

18 hours ago, Gean said:

 

Could you tell me please which is the value of a violin like this in your opinion?

 

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Nobody can give a precise value without seeing the instrument in question because of all the variables. I'll go out on a limb and suggest $200 if it's playable as is.

Less if it needs work.

Exactly. It also depends of the region, to whom you're selling (dealer, restorer, private person etc.)

[Gean]

On 4/26/2021 at 3:39 AM, Gean said:

 

Could you tell me please which is the value of a violin like this in your opinion?

 

On 4/26/2021 at 8:59 PM, Rue said:

Nobody can give a precise value without seeing the instrument in question because of all the variables. I'll go out on a limb and suggest $200 if it's playable as is.

Less if it needs work.

Thank you for your answer.

[Clinton Broughton]

We have a violin with all the earmarks described in this thread as a mass produced lower quality facsimile.

- Paper label inside is printed, not hand written. (Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope Oeniponteum 1765).

- STAINER stamped or burned on the back near the neck, letters ~ 1/4" high, word STAINER curved more that curve of body.

- It's been around our family for over 100 years that I know of. My question is : What does 1765 refer to? We've always assumed it was a date but could it also be just a manufacturers sequence number or model number?

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, Clinton Broughton said:

We have a violin with all the earmarks described in this thread as a mass produced lower quality facsimile.

- Paper label inside is printed, not hand written. (Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope Oeniponteum 1765).

- STAINER stamped or burned on the back near the neck, letters ~ 1/4" high, word STAINER curved more that curve of body.

- It's been around our family for over 100 years that I know of. My question is : What does 1765 refer to? We've always assumed it was a date but could it also be just a manufacturers sequence number or model number?

It's a bogus date designed into the fake label by someone who didn't know that Jacob Stainer died in 1683.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Stainer

From your description, you have one of the mass-produced trade violins described earlier.  If you play it, how does it sound?

Welcome to Maestronet. 

[Wood Butcher]

1 hour ago, Clinton Broughton said:

 My question is : What does 1765 refer to? We've always assumed it was a date but could it also be just a manufacturers sequence number or model number?

Stainer had died by 1683.

The labels inside these things are just total nonsense, so ignore the 1765. Your type of violin, with the firebrand on the back is going to date from around 1890-1900, or later.

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

Jacob Stainer died in 1683.

Really? He's dead? That's terrible.

[Wood Butcher]

17 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Really? He's dead? That's terrible.

Salustri too, grim times…

[Blank face]

18 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Really? He's dead? That's terrible.

Maybe he's still living at the dark side of the moon, not hearing all the nonsense about his making.

[Brad Dorsey]

6 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

...The labels inside these things are just total nonsense...

Yes.  I have had Stradivari-labeled violins that were dated before he was born and after he died.

[Clinton Broughton]

We've pretty much always been aware that even if the number 1765 was a date reference, it would be a century later than the original Jacob Stainer, but we were curious as to what it did refer to. No longer any musicians in the immediate family for many years, but it does appear to be playable. How it sounds remains to be determined. 

Thanks to those that responded.

[sid]

Not a snowballs....

[GerardM]

Would the arching’s on these copies resemble Stainers originals? 

[Blank face]

4 minutes ago, GerardM said:

Would the arching’s on these copies resemble Stainers originals? 

These aren’t copies but artifacts abusing the name. Therefore they don’t resemble anything.

[Stringworkshop]

I have a violin with all the same earmarks, minus the stamp under the back button. I’ve always known that is was not a Stainer, but I wonder, are there several different companies that did this? Not just one?