ABC123 Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 I am wanting to make a spirit varnish. However, I do not want to use shellac due to ethical reasons etc etc etc..... What alternative resin could I use in the recipe? 1. 180gr ground Shellac2. 30gr ground Sandarac.3. 30gr Elemi.4. 15ml Spike lavender oil.5. Spirit Unfortunately, shellac is clearly the main ingredient here, so maybe I would need a totally different recipe, instead of a simple substitute? Yesterday I made a very simple spirit varnish of just alcohol of colophony. I applied it on a scrap piece of wood, and it was rather pretty, but I am sure there are better options for avoiding shellac. I did attempt to try out a french polishing technique with this though, and it stuck like glue after 3 seconds and ripped the finish off! Is there no substitute for shellac to use with the french polishing technique? If not, a standard shellac-free spirit varnish is fine, but just thought I would ask while I am at it!
David Burgess Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 Would you be willing to explain the ethical concerns?
HoGo Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 2 hours ago, David Burgess said: Would you be willing to explain the ethical concerns? Strict vegan, I guess? Shellac is considered "animal" product by vegans. Then it is hopeless, I guess there were at least few bugs or worms in the corn used to make the alcohol as well... You can try some simple oil varnish... linseed oil and resin. BTW, isn't crude oil also animal product at least partially? So no mineral spirits or other solvents.
Jim Bress Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 Given the OP's restrictions, 100% tung oil may be a good option.
Okawbow Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 Any product one can think of involves the death and destruction of living creatures. Just getting a product to market kills thousands of animals and insects. Cutting a tree for tone wood takes away the habitat of animals and insects. Growing anything in farm fields destroys the ecosystem and pollutes the land with chemicals. there is no ethical way to exist in this world without destroying living creatures.
David Burgess Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, HoGo said: Strict vegan, I guess? Shellac is considered "animal" product by vegans. I didn't realize that. I thought it only applied to things which are eaten. Can they not even use manure to fertilize their plants?
Guglielmus Carinius Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 43 minutes ago, David Burgess said: I didn't realize that. I thought it only applied to things which are eaten. Can they not even use manure to fertilize their plants? There are many 'veganic' farmers who fertilise with cover crops (particularly leguminous ones) and rock powders.
Guglielmus Carinius Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 By the way, OP, there is a specific pinned thread for spirit varnish discussions.
Tom Fid Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Okawbow said: there is no ethical way to exist in this world without destroying living creatures. This is a true, but useless statement. In spite of the fact that no one can reach zero impact, there are large differences in the amount of nature that has to be commandeered to support predominantly plant-based vs. animal based diets. It's not clear that the minimal suffering of animals occurs at zero consumption though. In the case of shellac, the product isn't directly harvested from bugs, it's taken from their secretions on trees. That seems like an ethical mixed bag - there's surely some bycatch, but it seems likely that the bugs also benefit from cultivation. I think you'd have to look at the whole product lifecycle to decide whether something like tung oil, or polyurethane for that matter, was better.
duane88 Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 3 hours ago, David Burgess said: I didn't realize that. I thought it only applied to things which are eaten. Can they not even use manure to fertilize their plants? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_glaze
David Burgess Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 36 minutes ago, duane88 said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_glaze Yes, shellac is used in many foods. If I remember correctly, one use has been to coat cereals so they resist "getting soggy in milk" right away, and another use has been to coat M&Ms so the chocolate doesn't "melt in your hand". So what should one do about "rescue animals" which are natural predators"? Feed them beets, carrots, or celery (none of which I have found to be successful so far), and let them starve to death?
Salve Håkedal Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 In my experience, there is no alcohol soluble natural resin that can replace shellac. It's fast drying, slow dissolving (which is good when applying subsequent layers), tough, a nature product.. etc.
Bill Yacey Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 16 hours ago, Jim Bress said: Given the OP's restrictions, 100% tung oil may be a good option. You spelt tongue wrong. What kind of critters do they use for that?
Mampara Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 OK so I guess the next big question is about the ethics of hide glue?
Bill Yacey Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 Hide glue is OK. It's made from herbivores.
Jim Bress Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 22 hours ago, Jim Bress said: Given the OP's restrictions, 100% tung oil may be a good option. 6 hours ago, Bill Yacey said: You spelt tongue wrong. What kind of critters do they use for that? No, spelled right. This is the stuff I use. I've been using tung oil for close to 40 years on "percussion instruments". I wouldn't use it on a violin, but it could work on a solid body guitar. It's tuff, doesn't chip on impact, sweat resistant, and easy to repair (if desired). It doesn't have the optical qualities we're looking for in a varnish. However I think the OP is used to sacrificing for his/her belief.
David Burgess Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 Jim, do you have any experience with coloring or tinting the tung oil? I agree that it hardens into a rather tough and solvent-resistant film, without needing the addition of resins. (My varnishing bench is coated with this, as well as my wife's solid-body guitar)
Jim Bress Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 No, I've never tried. It's opaque enough that wouldn't want to add any pigments. I think staining or oxidizing (wet chemistry) the wood prior to application would work better.
Andreas Preuss Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 To answer the OPs question I would look into artificially made resins. But maybe that's ethically even worse.
Jeffrey Holmes Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 Whatever you decide, remember that in 1704 varnish the wax carried by the shellac resin plays an important role in the varnish.
Bill Yacey Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 4 hours ago, Jim Bress said: No, spelled right. This is the stuff I use. I've been using tung oil for close to 40 years on "percussion instruments". I wouldn't use it on a violin, but it could work on a solid body guitar. It's tuff, doesn't chip on impact, sweat resistant, and easy to repair (if desired). It doesn't have the optical qualities we're looking for in a varnish. However I think the OP is used to sacrificing for his/her belief. Joking; just a play on words.
Jim Bress Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 Sorry, That was a pre-coffee reply. I missed the tung and cheek.
ABC123 Posted January 13, 2020 Author Report Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Hi, I want to try to prevent this thread turning into a philosophical debate on ethics etc etc... that isn’t the part that is important. The part for me that matters is just that I don’t want to use shellac, the only reason I gave a simple reason was just so everybody wasn’t thinking that it may be a reason that could be avoided for me. I am not trying to force or preach any beliefs on anyone, I just wanted some advice on what spirit varnishes I could use without shellac. I know about tung oil, I have used it on guitars and furniture in the past with great results, but I was after a more film finish without synthetic resins. Is there any direction anyone could give me even for experimenting? If it is the wax part of shellac that is important, could I include soy/carnauba or whatever wax into the mixture? Edited January 13, 2020 by ABC123
ABC123 Posted January 16, 2020 Author Report Posted January 16, 2020 I have read that a damar based varnish can be good, and in the past was often used on furniture. It is a simple mixture of damar and alcohol. Could someone tell me which resins do what, such as which resins are used for hardening, softening, fast drying, slow drying etc etc. If I was to use wax to try to simulate the wax in shellac, what amount would I use to start of with? I am just after some guidelines on where to start experimenting!
David Burgess Posted January 16, 2020 Report Posted January 16, 2020 On 1/13/2020 at 12:07 PM, ABC123 said: I know about tung oil, I have used it on guitars and furniture in the past with great results, but I was after a more film finish without synthetic resins. Tung oil can be applied to form a substantially thick and durable film. Yes, it needs to be heat-treated to "self-level", and dry to a gloss finish.
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