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keyboardclass

What kind of neck setting?

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2 minutes ago, Jerry Pasewicz said:

I guess my question is, why do we have to make a choice of either or?  Isn’t it obvious that a neck that is set well is more likely to stay put without breaking the button than one set poorly and only glued to the button?

It just seemed to me that some folks don’t appreciate the function of the button. Of course the dovetail should fit properly, but the button should be well fit too. 

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5 minutes ago, violins88 said:

It just seemed to me that some folks don’t appreciate the function of the button. Of course the dovetail should fit properly, but the button should be well fit too. 

No doubt, I agree.

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In theory the gluing surface of button and the forces in the neck joint would indicate that the button could be sufficient to hold the neck in place alone BUT if any other forces are present (from side or just small fall of case) then ALL strength of all joined surfaces are needed as the button is undercut from top by purfling and often holds by just a 1-1.5mm of wood to the rest of back. Considering curly grain that can go pretty much at 45 degree in that spot there is almost no structural strength of the button itself holding to the rest of instrument so counting just with button is not advisable. Ironically repaired button with inlaid patch of straight grain maple could be stronger than original undamaged one.

Since I work on mandolins I can tell that even with well fitted and tight dovetail between neck and block (that is really hard to separate), if the heel separates from heel button the gap clearly opens a bit so the neck moves with string tension. On mandolins the heel button is stronger and the button will hold neck with partially failed dovetail (or mortise) much better.

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I would rather work on/repair a violin that when the neck fell out the button was not glued well enough to come off with the neck rather than have to fix a broken button.

Forces on a violin neck aren't really that great that the mortise plus glue shouldn't be able to do the whole job, IMO.

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6 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

I would rather work on/repair a violin that when the neck fell out the button was not glued well enough to come off with the neck rather than have to fix a broken button.

Forces on a violin neck aren't really that great that the mortise plus glue shouldn't be able to do the whole job, IMO.

Agreed.

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22 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

I would rather work on/repair a violin that when the neck fell out the button was not glued well enough to come off with the neck rather than have to fix a broken button.

Forces on a violin neck aren't really that great that the mortise plus glue shouldn't be able to do the whole job, IMO.

Agree too  

I don't understand why people argue about this. It's clear that the mortise and the button work together, and that each contributes a different amount to the strength of the neck depending on the violin. Anyone who has seen a good number of failed necks knows this, since they all fail differently.

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58 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

I would rather work on/repair a violin that when the neck fell out the button was not glued well enough to come off with the neck rather than have to fix a broken button.

Forces on a violin neck aren't really that great that the mortise plus glue shouldn't be able to do the whole job, IMO.

In my case minus mortise!

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On 1/8/2020 at 12:10 PM, JacksonMaberry said:

I do Baroque necks this way in my making, rather than using a nail. Fit, glue, and then a single stainless woodscrew. You can get a long mechanic's Phillips at any auto parts store that can be used through the endpin hole to back the screw out, and from there removing the neck is easy. Much kinder than a nail/nails and arguably kinder than a mortise for future repairers. 

If you're going to do this right, use a Robertson #8;  much better than Phillips because they don't cam out under torque.

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4 minutes ago, Bill Yacey said:

If you're going to do this right, use a Robertson #8;  much better than Phillips because they don't cam out under torque.

What's wrong with Torx? 

Ceruti got by with flatblade. In any case, since the screw is going into endgrain, I don't crank on it, just make sure it's fully seated. 

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9 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

In my case minus mortise!

Your violin had a mortice..   Unfortunately, whoever added the "shoe" (extension) to the neck root did not fit nor attach it properly  and it came apart.....the "shoe" was left in the mortice ..

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19 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

I would rather work on/repair a violin that when the neck fell out the button was not glued well enough to come off with the neck rather than have to fix a broken button...

Me, too.

So I have to wonder if this means we should stop gluing the neck to the button?

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6 hours ago, keyboardclass said:

Quite.  Actually the shim would have benefitted from a screw to the neck.

The shim would have benefited by being added to the  heel in a reasonable manner... but the place for (small) screws, if used, would be countersink in the shoe into the heel.

Probably shouldn't forget that what is being discussed within these four pages is a failure due to faulty workmanship.

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21 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

The shim would have benefited by being added to the  heel in a reasonable manner... but the place for (small) screws, if used, would be countersink in the shoe into the heel.

Probably shouldn't forget that what is being discussed within these four pages is a failure due to faulty workmanship.

Jeff, I have mainly done cylindrical dowels here, I noticed that you mentioned doing conical.  While this makes some sense, how do you go about doing it? I can imagine drilling a cylindrical hole, then using my smaller tapered reamer (for fractional pegs) to open it to a taper, resulting on a sort of "ball end" at the end of the hole.  Then, making the pin with the smallest of peg shavers???

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4 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

So I have to wonder if this means we should stop gluing the neck to the button?

I don’t think so. Our goal is not to make the neck pop out easily. A proper fit could hold forever. Yes, it’s more work to fix a broken button, but it’s worth the extra work to have a design that’s less likely to fail overall.

 I believe one of the key reasons we value the condition of the button is that it has such a significant structural role. If there’s a soundpost or bassbar crack, the loss to value is severe. The same holds with the button. Even with a beautiful repair that may be stronger than the original, the value goes down because there was a severe failure before, and people will always worry about it in the future. 

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5 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Me, too.

So I have to wonder if this means we should stop gluing the neck to the button?

Maybe. Not all experimental outcomes have been delivered, or sorted out yet.

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49 minutes ago, The Violin Beautiful said:

 

 I believe one of the key reasons we value the condition of the button is that it has such a significant structural role. If there’s a soundpost or bassbar crack, the loss to value is severe. The same holds with the button. Even with a beautiful repair that may be stronger than the original, the value goes down because there was a severe failure before, and people will always worry about it in the future. 

Honestly I have never devalued a violin because of a button repair, as long as it's professionally done and aesthetically pleasing. I've also never heard of anyone else devaluing a violin for this reason.

But I'm only talking about antique instruments - I suppose anything relatively new would need to be devalued for any visible trauma.

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35 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Honestly I have never devalued a violin because of a button repair, as long as it's professionally done and aesthetically pleasing. I've also never heard of anyone else devaluing a violin for this reason.

But I'm only talking about antique instruments - I suppose anything relatively new would need to be devalued for any visible trauma.

Isn't what is pristine and original mostly more highly valued than the same violin with a bunch of repairs, (including a broken -out button), or am I wrong about that?

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Isn't what is pristine and original mostly more highly valued than the same violin with a bunch of repairs, (including a broken -out button), or am I wrong about that?

Yes, but the nominal value of a violin that you might find in the Fuchs Taxe or Neuetaxe is for one in used but good condition, probably with one or two minor repairs.

Significant wear or repairs would incur a devaluation, pristine condition would command a premium, sometimes way in excess of the nominal retail value if it's a rarity.

A button repair which uses the original wood (possibly with an ebony crown), doesn't encroach on the back, and is well done (invisible to the naked eye) would not merit a devaluation away from that nominal value.

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5 hours ago, Jeff White said:

Jeff, I have mainly done cylindrical dowels here, I noticed that you mentioned doing conical.  While this makes some sense, how do you go about doing it? I can imagine drilling a cylindrical hole, then using my smaller tapered reamer (for fractional pegs) to open it to a taper, resulting on a sort of "ball end" at the end of the hole.  Then, making the pin with the smallest of peg shavers???

My pins are a little smaller than you describe...  I modified a countersink bit and make the tapered pins to fit... I imagine the small reamer idea would work pretty well for 'cello.

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8 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

My pins are a little smaller than you describe...  I modified a countersink bit and make the tapered pins to fit... I imagine the small reamer idea would work pretty well for 'cello.

Doing it with the end of a fractional reamer, I could make it less than 5mm in diameter.  Figure that would be small enough?  Currently, I make them cylindrical a little larger than that.  I'd like to see your modified countersink sometime.  Mine are all too steep.  Would guess you just make up the pins on the lathe.

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Well, as it's most likely only worth it's weight in kindling, I slapped some yellow glue on and stuck the neck back on.   24hrs after being strung up it's still holding :)

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