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mendicus

Gio Bapt Deconat fecit Venezia 1728 violin ID

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20 hours ago, Blank face said:

 This can be difficult if it was "doctored" at some point as it appears to be, it would to necessary to open it. Maybe even the ff were altered at some point. The long LOB and the heavy overlapping rib joints could point to a French origin, only the scroll won't fit very well into this. But perhaps it isn't original.

No need for Blankface to reply to me but the back plate, and to some extent the ribs, are reminiscent of my "new work" after I'm through varnishing.

I don't believe it was meant to deceive the future, just simply bring an instrument back to service even if the cobbling of parts was necessary to do so.

I see a slight amount of Leopold Widtham? influence going from the pegbox to the scroll but the overall length isn't there - just an opinion of mine from other pics.

So, would it be alright to call this particular fiddle "Tyroltenwald"?   The lower bout rib photo appears italianate, maybe french, hence my asking.

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16 hours ago, Jwillis said:

Yes very helpful thanks to jacob

Not very helpful at all! Unless you know, with whom to associate all

and every one of these features! ;)

But really; it would not be fair to ask an expert to reveal all the tricks of his trade... ^_^

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

Sorry to hear that you don't have a Gagliano

some of them are not...:D

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21 hours ago, Blank face said:

Maybe even the ff were altered at some point. The long LOB and the heavy overlapping rib joints could point to a French origin, only the scroll won't fit very well into this. But perhaps it isn't original.

The label is a somehow interesting bogus, if the letters are really imprinted. The dot over the "1" is another interesting feature. It seems as if someone mixed up a lot.:)

If French, according amati-like ff wings it would be first half of 18th c. would't it? Wasn't those violins made with groove on back with inset ribs?

What I think to be original lower corner blocks(and remnants of upper blocks) looks to be assymetrical in 'Mittenwald' way.

Letters are clearly imprinted. Could you please tell as what means dot over 1?

On cozio archive I have found few large venetian violins: 360mm and 363mm Belosio and 360mm Kaiser so LOB don't comletely rule out Venice, or am I wrong?

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=48796

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=41165

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=44479

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Bottom rib could have been possibly one piece originally, looking at grains I can't say for sure. But joint is not in centre of (current) endpin, but, of course, it could be result of repair

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If the varnish is original then I would think this is Mittenwald/Vienna/Prague (not narrowing it down much!), but the scroll doesn't gel for me and I assume it's from something else. 

Also as blank face suggested I would speculate that the lower f-hole tongues have been modified to make them more Amatise.

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7 minutes ago, martin swan said:

If the varnish is original then I would think this is Mittenwald/Vienna/Prague (not narrowing it down much!), but the scroll doesn't gel for me and I assume it's from something else. 

Also as blank face suggested I would speculate that the lower f-hole tongues have been modified to make them more Amatise.

Linings appear to be not let into corner blocks. Also I can see no evidence of wings to be altered.

If it was Mittenwald/Vienna/Prague I think Jacob Saunders would recognise it at first glance:)

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On 12/27/2019 at 7:56 PM, mendicus said:

linings and end block are of hard wood, lower corner blocks are replaced or covered and upper are hard to see if original and shape.

1 hour ago, mendicus said:

What I think to be original lower corner blocks(and remnants of upper blocks) looks to be assymetrical in 'Mittenwald' way.

Letters are clearly imprinted. Could you please tell as what means dot over 1?

It's not clear wether you are saying that the corner blocks are replaced/covered or original in an assymetrical Mittenwald shape, but without morticed linings? If they aren't original, it doesn't matter anyway how they appear now.

Imprinted letters can be made today, too, as long as you have the equipment, so this alone proves nothing. The letter set is in my experience different from the types they used in the 18th century, so it's most probably a more recent print with a dreadful misspelling (Deconat). The manner to write the one as a minuscle "i" with a dot was also from the German/Austrian regions (see the Stadlmann label below), so it doesn't fit to an Italian label either. I'm strongly supposing that the faker just copied randomly features from different old labels, ignoring mismatching details. So all reasoning about Venetian ff or LOB is without real ground here.

Jacob might correct me, but recognising every odd and possibly altered fiddle "at first glance" isn't something I would rely on.

stadl mi.jpg

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Another wrong thing with label is spelling 'Gio Bapt' it should be Giovanni Battista(t instead of p) or Ioannes Baptista or Johann Baptist.

But my hopes for Venice are not based on label(When I was buying violin I thought label is new photocopy of famous Deconet, didn't come to my mind first name is different then)

Upper corner block looks to be original and are assymetrical, what I thought was new lower corner blocks are actually spruce reinforcements that partially cover original blocks, also assymetrical. But because of dirt and angle of view I can't tell for sure if linings are let into corner blocks or not.

I have noticed open crack under tailpiece so maybe I will have it opened someday.

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Is it possible to turn clamped rib ends into what we see here, by fitting a corner block, using a dremmel and what not , and revarnish the area?

I'm not saying this happened here but I wonder if that is possible. 

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As I stated  already, corner blocks looks to be original in place.

I have found photo of Deconet label (in very informative old thread) that looks to have dot on 1 too.

But I would like to know if there is anything about this violin that rule out Venice? 

Thanks

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8 minutes ago, mendicus said:

As I stated  already, corner blocks looks to be original in place.

I have found photo of Deconet label (in very informative old thread) that looks to have dot on 1 too.

But I would like to know if there is anything about this violin that rule out Venice? 

Thanks

I don't think that's a dot since it's a completely different colour to the printed 1.

I would rule out Venice for various reasons, mainly the arching, the model and the varnish, but also the sweep of the f-holes. The scroll seems extraneous to me.

The label is not a Deconet label, so it seems a bit of a stretch to say that a violin with a fake label might be from the same geographical region - logic would suggest the opposite.

But if this is exercising you, I would suggest a dendro in this case. You would at least get a sense of whether the table wood is old enough to have been used by the Venetian school, and whether there are any matches to other Venetian instruments. However, I would just point out that I once had what I thought might be an early Gofriller, it matched to lots of Venetian instruments of the early 1700s, and was stylistically much closer to Venice than your violin - I got very excited. It turned out to be a Michael Albani - a lovely and rare violin, but not Venetian and not worth much.

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22 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Yes

How did you come to Albani? Just curious, havent seen to many of these makers myself.

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18 hours ago, deans said:

How did you come to Albani? Just curious, havent seen to many of these makers myself.

I can't take much credit for it myself. As always it's through a process of consultation and a gradual narrowing down of options - and by no means a quick process. In this case I think I dragged this violin around for the best part of a year ...

I bought it with an ancient certificate attributing it to Johann Paul Schorn (Salzburg). I didn't set much store by this, and was thinking more Venice. However, the first thing I did was to consult Jacob - he pointed me to some images of an authentic Schorn which looked very different, and which confirmed that the certificate was a red herring. 

I'd also asked Peter Ratcliff to do a dendro, which gave a latest ring date of 1695 - all the matches were with Italian violins. I think it was Peter who suggested sending photos to Charles Beare as he also thought the fiddle looked quite Italian, specifically Venetian.

In the meantime I was visiting David Rattray, and by this point I had convinced myself that this was a Montagnana or an early Gofriller (we live in hope). The usual self-delusion had kicked in - the violin sounded so good that it just had to be something priceless! However, David pointed to a few anomalies on the scroll and the inner work and thought it probably wasn't Venetian though the arching and the model were very similar.

Next I bumped into Stefan & Julian Hersh at an auction in France - they had recently sold a Matthias Albani and thought this was "very similar but not quite" (redder varnish and a slightly chunkier model). So they were the first to suggest Albani family. That clicked with me as I'd seen a couple of Albanis, in fact had come very close to buying one - that was a Matthias, more chestnut varnish, generally more graceful and also a tremendous sound.

After that I showed it to Benjamin Schroeder who thought the same (without being given any background) ie. Albani, early 18th century, but probably not Matthias. Shortly after that Charles Beare gave his opinion that the fiddle was by Michael Albani, and that it matched an instrument in his archive with an original label.

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Charles Beare gave his opinion that the fiddle was by Michael Albani,

I guess you should have stopped here first. Good story, thanks!

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