Gio Bapt Deconat fecit Venezia 1728 violin ID

[mendicus]

LOB is 362mm,

ribs are not let into channel on back,

upper and lower bouts ribs go over c-bout ribs so looks to me like inside mould,

linings and end block are of hard wood, lower corner blocks are replaced or covered and upper are hard to see if original and shape.

f-hole wings looks like what I imagine in Venice( but in many otherplaces up to early 18th century).

Label looks that is on place quite long time and letters are imprinted to paper(I think quite deep).

I have found nothing about maker named G.B. Deconat. 

Could this violin be Venetian?

I will upload better images if needed later because there is too dark now

Thanks

[jacobsaunders]

the label is one of these https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330195-johann-adam-schönfelder/&do=findComment&comment=621046 so pretend it doesn't exist, and do an ID procedure for an unlabeled instrument

 

[mendicus]

10 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

so pretend it doesn't exist, and do an ID procedure for an unlabeled instrument

 

Shouldn't it be always done this way?

I thought I read that one of features of these labels is that letters are not imprinted deep into paper, or am I wrong?

[jacobsaunders]

Yes. One should also be beware of labels on brownish paper

[mendicus]

Just now, jacobsaunders said:

Yes. One should also beware of labels on brownish paper

'yes' mean that I am wrong or that those labels don't have imprinted letters?

Because this label have deeply imprinted letters. Also colour is similar to rest of wood of back.

Anyway violin looks interesting:) to me regardless label.

[PhilipKT]

I have no idea what it is but this is what I have noticed: It has stubby corners, one piece bottom rib, the saddle is not inset into the rib, one piece back with small neck button, rounded shoulders, the scroll graft looks unusual( One should never try to identity an instrument by the presence or absence of a graft, so I’m not attempting to do that, I was just noticing that the graft looks to be a little bit unusual) or maybe that’s a cheek graft?

Is the purfling very close to the edge or is that a normal distance?

Does the scroll fluting go all the way?

is the label a misspelling of “Deconet?”

What does brownish paper mean?

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by PhilipKT
Spelling

[mendicus]

sorry for photos, but it have 2 piece bottom rib and saddle was once inset into rib.

scroll is fluted to bitter end

[jacobsaunders]

@Phillip

Your observations are largely correct, you fail to draw any conclusion though. The only certain conclusion IMHO is that the violin is not Saxon.

 

Old label paper is not brown, or even brownish, so if one is, you know that some gypsy has faked up a white one with walnut stain or fig tea or the like.

[deans]

Jacob, what's up with your typing?

[PhilipKT]

54 minutes ago, deans said:

Jacob, what's up with your typing?

He is in a very tiny room.

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, deans said:

Jacob, what's up with your typing?

 

8 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

He is in a very tiny room.

I have a new laptop, and it is like that. Up to now I couldn’t be bothered to tinker with it because I didn’t think it mattered. If it disturbs everyone, I will have to try to mess around with it

[Al Cramer]

Could someone please comment on the scroll? I am trying to train my eye to evaluate scrolls. This scroll looks odd to me, as regards the side views and the visual swoop of the curvature... I would like to know what people who actually know what good scrolls look like think about this one. Thanks! 

[hendrik]

Looks like a nice scroll to me, with some character. Different from  Mkn or Mittenwald. But what do I know.

Here some history, ( hope I didn't break any copyright laws) not chronologic : Guarneris, love those funkier ones:

View large image

Andrea Amati

Stainer, love that scooped out first turn

The Betts Stradivari

AHHope opA2/2

[hendrik]

And here a puzzle:  second one should not be too hard to guess as far as region:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Violin-scrolls.jpg

[Blank face]

One should start with finding out more about the "cornerblockology". Either it's made with an inside mould like Mittenwald or with the french method using preinstalled blocks. This can be difficult if it was "doctored" at some point as it appears to be, it would to necessary to open it. Maybe even the ff were altered at some point. The long LOB and the heavy overlapping rib joints could point to a French origin, only the scroll won't fit very well into this. But perhaps it isn't original.

The label is a somehow interesting bogus, if the letters are really imprinted. The dot over the "1" is another interesting feature. It seems as if someone mixed up a lot.

[hendrik]

Mendicus, could you show us some UV pictures?  The tiger stripes on the one side of the scroll but not the other side are a bit odd. 

[PhilipKT]

I must have a poor eye, because I think the scroll is aesthetically unhappy. The rest of the violin looks German to me, because of the varnish And the purfling, but given that there was not really any “Germany” back then, I haven’t narrowed it down any.

[Blank face]

25 minutes ago, hendrik said:

Mendicus, could you show us some UV pictures?  The tiger stripes on the one side of the scroll but not the other side are a bit odd. 

It looks like a cheek repair, perhaps with painted flames. Just wondering if the scroll could be Prague. This would fit to the pointed one at the fake label.

[jacobsaunders]

Agree with BF as usual. Gawping at pages and pages of scrolls is of no use, and will only make you go cross eyed, unless you separate out some concrete features to look for. Some could be (by no means an exhaustive list):

Is the peg box “”S” shaped. Or is it’s outline straighter.

Does the top end of the peg box have a lump above the A peg hole, where the peg box joins the scroll.

Does the scroll, sitting on the peg box look like it has it’s chin up, or chin down

Are the peg box walls, inside and out, cut parallel to the bottom of the box, or do they get thicker to the bottom.

Are the 4 (original) peg holes equally spaced, or spaced in two pairs.

Does the back of the peg box have a dogs nose or not

Does the fluting of the scroll in the throat go to the bitter end, or stop at 7 o’clock.

Which direction does the long axis of the mixture of Vignola and Archimedes spirals have.

Is the scroll deeply carved or shallow

I could go on for ages, if I put my mind to it. This way one can gradually tick boxes and separate scrolls from each other and possibly occasionally identify something.

Cornerblockology is simple by comparison, since it was determined by which method of rib structure was used to make the violin, wheras carving a scroll doesn't betray a working method of the maker

 

[PhilipKT]

58 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Agree with BF as usual. Gawping at pages and pages of scrolls is of no use, and will only make you go cross eyed, unless you separate out some concrete features to look for. Some could be (by no means an exhaustive list):

Is the peg box “”S” shaped. Or is it’s outline straighter.

Does the top end of the peg box have a lump above the A peg hole, where the peg box joins the scroll.

Does the scroll, sitting on the peg box look like it has it’s chin up, or chin down

Are the peg box walls, inside and out, cut parallel to the bottom of the box, or do they get thicker to the bottom.

Are the 4 (original) peg holes equally spaced, or spaced in two pairs.

Does the back of the peg box have a dogs nose or not

Does the fluting of the scroll in the throat go to the bitter end, or stop at 7 o’clock.

Which direction does the long axis of the mixture of Vignola and Archimedes spirals have.

Is the scroll deeply carved or shallow

I could go on for ages, if I put my mind to it. This way one can gradually tick boxes and separate scrolls from each other and possibly occasionally identify something.

Cornerblockology is simple by comparison, since it was determined by which method of rib structure was used to make the violin, wheras carving a scroll doesn't betray a working method of the maker

 

Brilliant thank you for listing these things to look at.

[Jwillis]

3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Are the 4 (original) peg holes equally spaced, or spaced in two pairs

Jacob, unrelated to this violin but peg holes spaced in pairs points To what sort of makers, or schools of makers, or regions?

[Jwillis]

2 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Brilliant thank you for listing these things to look at.

Yes very helpful thanks to jacob

[jacobsaunders]

10 hours ago, Jwillis said:

Jacob, unrelated to this violin but peg holes spaced in pairs points To what sort of makers, or schools of makers, or regions?

the Gagliano family famously aranged the pegs in pairs

[Delabo]

4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

the Gagliano family famously aranged the pegs in pairs

How many makers have copied this Gagliano invention ?

For example, do we see it as a common feature on saxon violins ?

I have just looked at some of my violins and one is definitely a Gagliano based on this easy ID trait - but sadly I know its not.

[jacobsaunders]

Yes, treacherous isn’t it. I have not noticed pegs being in two pairs as a prevalent Saxon feature. As I have said thousands of times, one feature alone is not sufficient to come to any concrete conclusion, you need a row of ticked boxes. Sorry to hear that you don't have a Gagliano.