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jandepora

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In general terms, all necks were nailed or glued to the ribs up till around 1780/1800, though the practice persisted for another 20/30 years in some schools.

In particular the English and Scottish self-taught makers used big iron or brass woodscrews well into the second half of the 19th century. One might even imagine someone finding a mortised neck and chopping off the mortise in order to achieve this very crude joint.

 

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That's an interesting question. What I found at old Mittenwald f.i. had a cutout in the ribs where the neck was nailed directly to the block, or one time at an altered violin a filled cutout, at an upper block still having the nail hole in it. OTOH the Cremonese and Stainer seemed to have nailed the neck through the rib. Also some rather late 19th century autodidactical instruments with necks glued to the rib without any nail or screw.

If the OP would remove the badly fitting neck we could see if there are holes (or a single hole) from a former nail, or any other marks.

 

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2 hours ago, BassClef said:

Is it possible that early on in this violin’s life the top was replaced? The new top was too wide so it was narrowed at the center seam? Probably not, but I am seeing some scratches and marks that abruptly stop at the center seam and then others (later?) that run across it.

It's not clearly to tell by the photos, but I'm supposing the joint was just opened and reglued not exactly in register, leaving residues of dirt at one side only. Ther are also some irregulary scratched areas of the "purfling.

OTOH the inside looks so smooth (and the bar rather fresh) that it could have been regraduated not long ago. Also the wood colour with the dark brown winter grain is different from what I'm usually seeing, possibly from an unusual source or species.

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23 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Also the wood colour with the dark brown winter grain is different from what I'm usually seeing, possibly from an unusual source or species.

Looks rather like Scots or Common Pine to me (Pinus sylvestris), quite often used on English/Scottish auto-didact stuff. The back also looks very much the sort of wood an amateur British maker would use (possibly local sycamore).

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

If the OP would remove the badly fitting neck we could see if there are holes (or a single hole) from a former nail, or any other marks.

After 1 hour of hard work (dammned screw) I remove the neck and here you have the pictures:

nail.thumb.jpg.e491c5b245495827a0eed2cbc721217f.jpgnail3.thumb.jpg.e6ca95596d257a3ab6d1fd9018fda4d1.jpgnail2.thumb.jpg.c259e738f496874ab58a10c0120be926.jpg

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That method of fixing the neck was, I think, quite widespread. I can remember one from Cologne for instance, but have forgotten his name. I do not think it gives helpful hints where the rest of the fiddle comes from since I have been unable to narrow down sutch a neck fit to a particular area. I don’t find the fiddle to be “autodidactic”, and would put it on once side until some other instrument comes along and sparks a brainwave.

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8 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

That method of fixing the neck was, I think, quite widespread. I can remember one from Cologne for instance, but have forgotten his name. I do not think it gives helpful hints where the rest of the fiddle comes from since I have been unable to narrow down sutch a neck fit to a particular area. I don’t find the fiddle to be “autodidactic”, and would put it on once side until some other instrument comes along and sparks a brainwave

maybe dendro could help in this case? How old do you think the violin could be?

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2 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

dendro is what everyone suggests when they are to vain to own up that they don't know

maybe this violin is so puzzle that need as much information as could obtain.

 

 

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In the past, when origin didn’t meet any good criteria, immaculate conception has been suggested. I reached out to the Vatican City officials and various religious leaders about the frankentiddle, which was also of unknown origin. You can search for frankentiddle on the auction scroll to read that very long thread, if you’re up for an adventure that is...

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One question was where is the nail. I began to think that it was hiden in the bottom of the block, where it could be see like a cave of glue/wood... and there it was! the screw

And now my question is: if the top block is not original and someone used the top block from another violin and put a patch/nail of wood where an old nail exists or the block is original, because it is in the same position as the hole of the old nail.

1804476992_nail6.thumb.jpg.0aa6d6b2e65273c9dabbecc509b68758.jpgNail4.thumb.jpg.e29ccba2dc5bbbc8831453ee5b015eae.jpgnail5.thumb.jpg.d603c6789389cf7e4b08a9edeb2147fe.jpg

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Well it appears that those ribs always had a nailed-on or screwed-on neck, though not necessarily the current one. I suppose the upper hole and the patch in the block are from a previous fixing. This must surely have been a countersunk screw since it wouldn't be worth patching if it was just a nailhole.

The thing that bothers me about this violin is the model. It looks so narrow, I haven't really seen anything mainstream that's this sort of shape. What are the measurements across the bouts?

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I really like this violin and think it looks as if the arching is very good and consistent between front and back and the whole thing is well made and professional. The f's are handsome and the shape characterful and well thought out. The trouble is that violins of less familiar traditions are condemned too often as "amateur".

 

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21 hours ago, martin swan said:

I suppose the upper hole and the patch in the block are from a previous fixing.

Then the top block is orignal to the violin?

21 hours ago, martin swan said:

The thing that bothers me about this violin is the model. It looks so narrow, I haven't really seen anything mainstream that's this sort of shape. What are the measurements across the bouts?

lob 360 mm - Top 160 mm - Center 105 mm - Bottom 203 mm - Rib height +-30mm

Distance betwen FF - UP 30mm / Center 55mm (notches)

Distance Edge/ ff notch 197mm

The ribs thickness is very inconsistent, fluctuating from 2.1mm to 3.0 mm ( if you pass the finger in the inside side of the rib you could feel the grain of the flames)

 

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54 minutes ago, jandepora said:

Then the top block is orignal to the violin?

Not necessarily ...

But the ribs obviously had an unmortised neck attached when the instrument was varnished, either the current one or another. I would hope it was another because the fit of the current one was so godawful.

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This is one of the pictures I found about Mariani school violin that has a similar ffs. I think it is impossible that mine was italian, but those are the most similar ff I found.

1755248820_leonhardtmariani.thumb.jpg.638d050427806d335139ec0979b9a7ff.jpgClipboard07.thumb.jpg.5f54787ad2158bbb1814400a505309e1.jpg

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18 minutes ago, jandepora said:

This is one of the pictures I found about Mariani school violin that has a similar ffs. I think it is impossible that mine was italian, but those are the most similar ff I found.

Check into Tarisio, then belgium and danish makers, maybe scandinavian makers also. 

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20 hours ago, uncle duke said:

Check into Tarisio, then belgium and danish makers, maybe scandinavian makers also. 

I didn't find many coincidences with mine. Except, maybe, Gaspar Borbon. Could you show me or give me pictures or links to examples of what are you thinking about? Thank you.

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1 hour ago, jandepora said:

I didn't find many coincidences with mine. Except, maybe, Gaspar Borbon. Could you show me or give me pictures or links to examples of what are you thinking about? Thank you.

I can't seem to find what I was looking at a few days ago or even yesterday in regards to this particular fiddle but I'm sure it was the Tarisio website I was looking at.  I just spent considerable time trying to find what I thought I was looking at - sorry, no help.

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On 12/24/2019 at 7:39 PM, uncle duke said:

I can't seem to find what I was looking at a few days ago or even yesterday in regards to this particular fiddle but I'm sure it was the Tarisio website I was looking at.  I just spent considerable time trying to find what I thought I was looking at - sorry, no help.

Thank you very much for your help, time and interest. 

About news no news I have the answer of Roland Terrier (I wrote him thinking in the french construction method) and he told me that nothing french he see in this violin but looks really interesting. 

I am very intriguing... Other roads to investigate?

 

 

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47 minutes ago, vathek said:

Perhaps this is arguable, but the screw is a machine made one with a pointed end which probably can't predate 1840's.

surely, thank you. The idea is that the screw is a later addition and that in origin it has a nail or screw in the upper hole that now is covered.

What seems by the original hole  is that the nail/screw originally was thinner that the actual one.

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1 hour ago, Three13 said:

Did early Polish makers use walnut blocks?

I don't know but understand your question because mine has a resemblance with early polish violins in the ff. At least in the upper part of the ff.

Maybe @mendicus could see my fiddle and compare with him violin

More I see my violin more I see that maybe it was bigger and was cut down in the middle... the distance of the ff to the edges are greater than expected...

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