What Features Distinguish a Bergonzi Model?

[GeorgeH]

What are the distinguishing features of a Bergonzi Model versus a Strad model?

[Nick Allen]

Square and narrow C bouts. Flattish inner corners that don't hook a lot, but aren't as open as a DG. Scrolls, from the side, have a lil more wood removed around the ten o'clock region, if the scroll is facing to the right. 

That's as far as I know. 

[scordatura]

Narrow upper and c bouts. C bouts also tend to be longer or taller.

 

 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

The catalog for the Cremona exhibition on Carlo Bergonzi in 2011 is an excellent resource.  Lots of photos and great articles concerning history, working method and style.

 

[sospiri]

10 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

What are the distinguishing features of a Bergonzi Model versus a Strad model?

Ugly scrolls. Not all of them, but most of them.

[martin swan]

7 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Ugly scrolls. Not all of them, but most of them.

Which do you find ugly?

[sospiri]

5 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Which do you find ugly?

In the Tarisio archive, most of them. Which ones don't you find ugly?

[martin swan]

I don't find any of them ugly. I wonder what your criteria are?

 

 

[sospiri]

I look at them without rose tinted glasses. They look like they were carved by a novice, they are all over the place. No sense of proportion.

[GeorgeH]

Thanks! I appreciate the insights and references. I am not interested in debating beautiful or not, but more interested in how one might distinguish a Bergonzi model (not necessarily an authentic Bergonzi) from the outline of the back, shape of ffs, etc. 

This thread is helpful in pointing what to look for first.

[Michael Appleman]

30 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I look at them without rose tinted glasses. They look like they were carved by a novice, they are all over the place. No sense of proportion.

???Carlo Bergonzi's scrolls are unusually cleanly cut and symmetrical compared to his contemporaries and predecessors. His eyes are particularly precise, looking like dowels passing straight through the scroll. Absolutely nothing "novice" about them. Are you thinking of his son's or grandsons' scrolls?

[sospiri]

3 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

???Carlo Bergonzi's scrolls are unusually cleanly cut and symmetrical compared to his contemporaries and predecessors. His eyes are particularly precise, looking like dowels passing straight through the scroll. Absolutely nothing "novice" about them. Are you thinking of his son's or grandsons' scrolls?

They vary a lot. The volutes in many of them don't open up gradually, as you see in the classic Golden Ratio volute. Some of them are quite nice, but on the whole they are very inconsistent. And some of them are just plain bad.

[Michael Appleman]

Some of the distinguishing features of Carlo Bergonzi's violins as I've learned them are: 

Body length generally shorter than Strad, often 352mm, but a long-ish stop often 195mm+

Low-set, widely spaces f-holes

Square-ish center bouts, the purfling line often doesn't pick-up smoothly across the corners, but zigs inwards at the center bouts.

Higher ribs without a taper above the top corners

Center bout rib linings let-in with a point (Mittenwald style!) instead of square

There's I believe only one Bergonzi violin that has its original neck, the Kreisler (see above) and what's left of it shows the neck was quite a bit longer than Strad's surviving original necks. About the same length as a "modern" neck!

Original Bergonzi corners are long and tapered, neither trumpetting nor hooked à la Del Gesu, but many (like the Kreisler) have had their corners "reduced."

Otherwise, the nicest ones do look alot like Strads, may have been sold through the Strad family (Paolo) and many, like the Kreisler above, picked up Strad labels very early on (the Kreisler seems to have been bought by Cozio from Paolo Stradivari and the date on the Strad label inside it looks like Cozio's handwriting) 

Once one starts looking at Michelangelo Bergonzis, the workmanship falls off quite a bit, but the outlines and general design are still close to his father. With the grandsons, Nicolo and Carlo II, things get very different!

[Michael Appleman]

2 minutes ago, sospiri said:

They vary a lot. The volutes in many of them don't open up gradually, as you see in the classic Golden Ratio volute. Some of them are quite nice, but on the whole they are very inconsistent. And some of them are just plain bad.

Strange, I wonder if we're looking at the same photos. I find Carlo Bergonzi's scrolls to be very consistent, and very recognizeable. Carlo's pegbox/scroll pattern tends to be slightly more "open" than Strad's, as he seems to have carried on with a pattern from Vincenzo Ruggieri, who was probably his teacher, but there are some Strad cellos that today are believed to have scrolls made by Bergonzi. I've seen a couple of scrolls by Michelengelo that I'd accept are a bit wonky, but I think you'll have trouble finding many people who'd agree that Carlo's scrolls are "just plain bad."

[Jeffrey Holmes]

10 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

Strange, I wonder if we're looking at the same photos. I find Carlo Bergonzi's scrolls to be very consistent, and very recognizeable. Carlo's pegbox/scroll pattern tends to be slightly more "open" than Strad's, as he seems to have carried on with a pattern from Vincenzo Ruggieri, who was probably his teacher, but there are some Strad cellos that today are believed to have scrolls made by Bergonzi. I've seen a couple of scrolls by Michelengelo that I'd accept are a bit wonky, but I think you'll have trouble finding many people who'd agree that Carlo's scrolls are "just plain bad."

Agreed...

[sospiri]

I'm looking through the Tarisio archive. My suspicion is that many of you are viewing them with rose tinted glasses. And for that reason and the fact that the violin world is extremely conservative, I don't expect many of you will see that on a few occasions the  Emperor is naked.

 

[Nick Allen]

2 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I'm looking through the Tarisio archive. My suspicion is that many of you are viewing them with rose tinted glasses. And for that reason and the fact that the violin world is extremely conservative, I don't expect many of you will see that on a few occasions the  Emperor is naked.

 

I've got my popcorn in the mic!

[martin swan]

8 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

I've seen a couple of scrolls by Michelengelo that I'd accept are a bit wonky, but I think you'll have trouble finding many people who'd agree that Carlo's scrolls are "just plain bad."

I suppose sospiri is one of these new age distrupters who has yet to descend into the valley of despair ....

  

[Michael Appleman]

You're welcome to your opinions and your suspicions! Just to bring a little balance, from someone who's played and studied several Bergonzis from each generation, I like them alot, scrolls included.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

6 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I'm looking through the Tarisio archive. My suspicion is that many of you are viewing them with rose tinted glasses. And for that reason and the fact that the violin world is extremely conservative, I don't expect many of you will see that on a few occasions the  Emperor is naked.

 

How many have you seen in person, worked on or held?  Which (of the relatively very instruments) are you sighting? Fine with me if the style isn't to your liking, but your judgement about others wearing rose colored glasses is absurd.

[sospiri]

6 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

How many have you seen in person, worked on or held?  Which (of the relatively very instruments) are you sighting? Fine with me if the style isn't to your liking, but your judgement about others wearing rose colored glasses is absurd.

Could it be that two hands were at work? There is a style I recognise that does seem to be consistent which I would describe as a kind of pout in the way the volute opens.

But look through the Tarisio archive at some of those from the 1730s. Maybe he had some help from Katarina?

[martin swan]

8 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

How many have you seen in person, worked on or held?  Which (of the relatively very instruments) are you sighting? Fine with me if the style isn't to your liking, but your judgement about others wearing rose colored glasses is absurd.

Maybe answer Jeffrey's question ....

[GeorgeH]

4 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Maybe answer Jeffrey's question ....

@sospiri maybe start a different thread to debate Bergonzi scrolls. Thanks.

[sospiri]

1 minute ago, martin swan said:

Maybe answer Jeffrey's question ....

No I haven't seen any. Does that mean that the ugly ones, (take a look for yourself and answer my question) are not something I can comment on?

Were they carved by a different hand?

Am I not allowed to say this because I'm not part of your world? But you are allowed to say that an ugly scroll on a cheap fiddle is what it is, an ugly scroll?

 

[sospiri]

7 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

@sospiri maybe start a different thread to debate Bergonzi scrolls. Thanks.

It's something I've been wanting to say for a long time. Why censor me for being honest?