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New Hill violins

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On 12/12/2019 at 10:16 PM, Jeremyamoto said:

No worries. They are such great makers. I’m a big fan of their work and I can’t wait to see the next one.

Congratulations on a terrific  purchase. Are you still in Toronto? I would love to drop by next year , end of April. Will pm you if that is ok.

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48 minutes ago, hendrik said:

Congratulations on a terrific  purchase. Are you still in Toronto? I would love to drop by next year , end of April. Will pm you if that is ok.

Thanks!

No, I’m not in Toronto anymore. I’ve been in Winnipeg for about five years, the last four as Principal Second Violin if the WSO. 

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The disparity between European and American violin prices is noteworthy.  All sorts of factors play a part in pricing- culture, cost of living,  free healthcare,  rivalry with plumbers in regard to finding a soul mate etc.

During a recent LSO tour the bean counters worked our that a return flight to Heathrow was often a few pounds cheaper than a night in a hotel. As a result the LSO tour was interrupted by the occasional one night return to England. 

Perhaps the figures in the following articles/ reports are worth a read.

 

https://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=232391&subid=0

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/howard-reich/ct-ent-csoa-annual-report-1017-story.html%3foutputType=amp

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37 minutes ago, Martin McClean said:

The disparity between European and American violin prices is noteworthy.  All sorts of factors play a part in pricing- culture, cost of living,  free healthcare,  rivalry with plumbers in regard to finding a soul mate etc.

 

 

Aren't plumbers better lovers than fiddleplayers and fiddlemakers, or have I taken an analytic misstep somewhere? :(

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17 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

Aren't plumbers better lovers than fiddleplayers and fiddlemakers, or have I taken an analytic misstep somewhere? :(

Don't know david. I've never slept with a plumber- I'll just have to take your word for it.

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On 12/12/2019 at 12:57 AM, Wood Butcher said:

It is nice to hear some comments from someone who has actually had hands on these. Thank you Mr Hebbert.

The cynicism would have been allayed, if the website had perhaps been better written, and with more information. I understand what you mean about brand security, I guess they had specific markets in mind before starting this new project.

Interesting to read the comments about current British  makers being mediocre, and not charging enough to be able to execute great work. Is this a result of the economic situation now, or it has always been this way?
Do you think some of them are being held back?

Mr Woodbutcher, that was unnecessarily cynical to translate my comments to mean mediocre... we've had enough of political double-talk here in the UK - :)  :) :)  but, seriously, there has to be an equation of time and money, and there are very few makers that can indulge in the kind of endless project, especially when it comes to careful copying of an old original. One person (who frequently posts here) has told me that it takes them more than twice the time to make a convincing copy than to make a nonetheless superb 'pastiche', and that time has to be paid for. 

John Cockburn made a comment earlier in the thread about the ability to make a violin within the £10,000 - 15,000 region. I agree 99% with him, although I see some violins that are genuinely deserving of more (and we probably agree upon which ones they are). The high prices that various "brands" are asking don't mean that violin makers generally should be asking up to £30k, but simply that there is less congestion in the market and it is easier to ask more than £10,000. That I think is critically important, and it is at that level that we see the freedom in violin making for people to make masterworks without compromise. I'm glad to say that there is a lot of excellent work at that level in Britain, and I keep seeing really exciting works by contemporary British makers, as I do with makers from around the world. :)






 

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Speaking of plumbers and gender...

Neither the male, nor the female, plumber could fix the sink in the ladies room at work. :angry:

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21 hours ago, Ben Hebbert said:

Mr Woodbutcher, that was unnecessarily cynical to translate my comments to mean mediocre... we've had enough of political double-talk here in the UK - :)  :) :)  but, seriously, there has to be an equation of time and money, and there are very few makers that can indulge in the kind of endless project, especially when it comes to careful copying of an old original. One person (who frequently posts here) has told me that it takes them more than twice the time to make a convincing copy than to make a nonetheless superb 'pastiche', and that time has to be paid for. 

John Cockburn made a comment earlier in the thread about the ability to make a violin within the £10,000 - 15,000 region. I agree 99% with him, although I see some violins that are genuinely deserving of more (and we probably agree upon which ones they are). The high prices that various "brands" are asking don't mean that violin makers generally should be asking up to £30k, but simply that there is less congestion in the market and it is easier to ask more than £10,000. That I think is critically important, and it is at that level that we see the freedom in violin making for people to make masterworks without compromise. I'm glad to say that there is a lot of excellent work at that level in Britain, and I keep seeing really exciting works by contemporary British makers, as I do with makers from around the world. :)






 

Are we to take it that the high point of violin making is the ability to produce a convincing copy rather than a successful pastiche? 

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21 hours ago, Ben Hebbert said:

Mr Woodbutcher, that was unnecessarily cynical to translate my comments to mean mediocre... we've had enough of political double-talk here in the UK - :)  :) :)  but, seriously, there has to be an equation of time and money, and there are very few makers that can indulge in the kind of endless project, especially when it comes to careful copying of an old original. One person (who frequently posts here) has told me that it takes them more than twice the time to make a convincing copy than to make a nonetheless superb 'pastiche', and that time has to be paid for. 

John Cockburn made a comment earlier in the thread about the ability to make a violin within the £10,000 - 15,000 region. I agree 99% with him, although I see some violins that are genuinely deserving of more (and we probably agree upon which ones they are). The high prices that various "brands" are asking don't mean that violin makers generally should be asking up to £30k, but simply that there is less congestion in the market and it is easier to ask more than £10,000. That I think is critically important, and it is at that level that we see the freedom in violin making for people to make masterworks without compromise. I'm glad to say that there is a lot of excellent work at that level in Britain, and I keep seeing really exciting works by contemporary British makers, as I do with makers from around the world. :)






 

If I can ask you : what is the reason new violins are so much money ? I understand ( can be wrong ) that it takes +- 2weeks to make a violin and maybe a few hundred in materials. Should violins not cost more like £2-3000 or so ? And then maybe makers will sell much more ?

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7 minutes ago, VicM said:

If I can ask you : what is the reason new violins are so much money ? I understand ( can be wrong ) that it takes +- 2weeks to make a violin and maybe a few hundred in materials. Should violins not cost more like £2-3000 or so ? And then maybe makers will sell much more ?

Speaking only for myself, it takes me about a month to make a violin and another month to varnish it. It also took me years to learn how and has cost me many thousands of dollars in education, materials, tools, and mistakes to get here. I hope this puts pricing into a broader perspective for you. 

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3 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Speaking only for myself, it takes me about a month to make a violin and another month to varnish it. It also took me years to learn how and has cost me many thousands of dollars in education, materials, tools, and mistakes to get here. I hope this puts pricing into a broader perspective for you. 

I can not say it does. How much then should Trauma Surgeon earn ? I hope this puts things into a broader perspective for you. :)

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8 minutes ago, VicM said:

I can not say it does. How much then should Trauma Surgeon earn ? I hope this puts things into a broader perspective for you. :)

Sorry I wasn't any help. Your comment about trauma surgeons is a non-sequitur. Unfortunately, you haven't been able to provide me with any valuable perspective, either. Best wishes going forward.

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9 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Sorry I wasn't any help. Your comment about trauma surgeons is a non-sequitur. Unfortunately, you haven't been able to provide me with any valuable perspective, either. Best wishes going forward.

That was a retorical question. A trauma Surgeon learns thousand of times more than a person making violins and his/her work is so much more important it is not even to be compared. That means the amount of time took you to "learn" has no value by comparison. Also, when trauma surgeon makes a mistake you are in very deep trouble. When you make a mistake it is just a piece of wood of no value BY COMPARISON. If it takes you one moth to make a violin and one month (sic!) to varnish it then maybe you are slow or not competent enough. Sure, it can not take 200 hours to varnish small piece of furniture. To me it looks like violin makers want to be payed for their ineficiency  or just because they exists.

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1 hour ago, VicM said:

That was a retorical question. A trauma Surgeon learns thousand of times more than a person making violins and his/her work is so much more important it is not even to be compared. That means the amount of time took you to "learn" has no value by comparison. Also, when trauma surgeon makes a mistake you are in very deep trouble. When you make a mistake it is just a piece of wood of no value BY COMPARISON. If it takes you one moth to make a violin and one month (sic!) to varnish it then maybe you are slow or not competent enough. Sure, it can not take 200 hours to varnish small piece of furniture. To me it looks like violin makers want to be payed for their ineficiency  or just because they exists.

How long does it take to make a really good violin.....about 40 years experience  I would say...similar for surgeon.  You need to wind your neck in

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14 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

How long does it take to make a really good violin.....about 40 years experience  I would say...similar for surgeon.  You need to wind your neck in

Must a trauma surgeon with 40 years experience charge 20 times more for fixing you after some really bad car accident ? That is an idea I like !

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16 hours ago, VicM said:

That was a retorical question. A trauma Surgeon learns thousand of times more than a person making violins and his/her work is so much more important it is not even to be compared. That means the amount of time took you to "learn" has no value by comparison. Also, when trauma surgeon makes a mistake you are in very deep trouble. When you make a mistake it is just a piece of wood of no value BY COMPARISON. If it takes you one moth to make a violin and one month (sic!) to varnish it then maybe you are slow or not competent enough. Sure, it can not take 200 hours to varnish small piece of furniture. To me it looks like violin makers want to be payed for their ineficiency  or just because they exists.

Quit being a troll. Standing up straw surgeons to couch your ignorance of violin making is as boring as your furniture must be.

We out here. We exists. And we have learned many things in our decades at the bench; not the least of which are how to spell grade 5 words like rhetorical and inefficiency.

Go back under your bridge and leave the conversation to the industry.

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the sense of unfairness in a market is always about lack of meritocracy, and this whole thread has been trying to force individuals' sense of value onto a product line which has hit the market.

Hebbert's point about congestion at a certain price point is why I keep my prices pretty close to what they were ten years ago, with dozens of instruments in between-- once you hit 16-24k in the States, you are in the Deep End, swimming with serious competition from around the world, and LOTS of it. Maybe I deserve to be there, although the devil on my shoulder says I'm not ready, my purfling is shabby, my varnish is cloudy, my tone doesn't carry enough... but I don't need to compete with Meike Aupperle and Ian McWilliams and Fabienne Gauchet and Eddy Miller to get my instruments into good hands. There's less of my quality of work at 12-16k, so I've stuck there in the market.

The new Hills are a smart move to take a British institution and sell it in other markets than Great Britain, it seems to me. And why take an institution as respected as W E Hill and Sons and throw them into the Deep End of the low market? That would be silly.

So do the new Hill fiddles BELONG in the 30k range? Hell yes they do. Especially considering not NEW violins at that price range, but the wash of mediocre old available for what is a middling price for every tight, thick fiddle from the right city in the 20th century, or the wrong city in the 19th. Pricing them this way was well done. 

 Ive seen two of the violins, and they are top flight. Workmanship and varnish and tone are all competing with the most expensive modern I see. 

Daring a market always pisses a few shoppers off.

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33 minutes ago, Christopher Jacoby said:

Quit being a troll. Standing up straw surgeons to couch your ignorance of violin making is as boring as your furniture must be.

We out here. We exists. And we have learned many things in our decades at the bench; not the least of which are how to spell grade 5 words like rhetorical and inefficiency.

Go back under your bridge and leave the conversation to the industry.

Thank you but I am fine. And I am free to ask questions and have opinions. Nothing you can do about it.

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1 hour ago, VicM said:

Thank you but I am fine. And I am free to ask questions and have opinions. Nothing you can do about it.

Jacoby  or I could certainly do something about it, but fortunately,  neither of us are pursuing the "power trip" road.

Aside from ethical considerations, it often works out better to give some people just enough rope to hang themself. ;)

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On 12/14/2019 at 7:07 PM, David Burgess said:

 

Aren't plumbers better lovers than fiddleplayers and fiddlemakers, or have I taken an analytic misstep somewhere? :(

Maybe it depends on the plumber's plumbing.

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1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Jacoby  or I could certainly do something about it, but fortunately,  neither of us are pursuing the "power trip" road.

Aside from ethical considerations, it often works out better to give some people just enough rope to hang themself. ;)

Jacoby AND you could not even pick me up and carry me.  Am 203cm and hevyer than both of you together.

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57 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Yup. And I'm a 800 cm Tyrannosaurus. :lol:

 You're an 80Kg elderly man with brittle bones and bad hair in your picture. And tiny hands.

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