New Hill violins

[Martin McClean]

2 hours ago, JohnCockburn said:

WTF?? who said that? 

An American perhaps?

[Rue]

Hmm. I use the terms; benchmade, small shop and factory. I know jargon varies, but these seem to broadly cover the 3 main "types".

However, I'm up for new, better, jargon...as soon as everyone agrees as to what it should be. 

 

[Rue]

12 hours ago, deans said:

Looks like they have pretty nice benches in China

OT - just look at all the women making violins!!!!

12 hours ago, Ben Hebbert said:

Oh dear, what cynicism we have here. 

Having seen and played a few of these violins, the workshop is under the supervision of Greiner and Brewer-Young. Frankly, I am of the opinion that small workshops of makers working individually and together have potential advantages over isolated makers because of the continuous feedback that they get from their  peers. If I was wanting to go down that route of making, it would be a wonderful experience. 

I’m actually very grateful that the larger names are asking high sums for their instruments, as there has been too much congestion around the £10000 mark for new instruments. It means that makers don’t have the financial incentive to go the extra mile and really focus on great work. Since things began to open up a little, we’ve seen a real flourishing of top end makers because they can charge a price that allows them to afford to spend the extra time on these instruments. 

Would I buy one? With a lot of knowledge of contemporary makers in Britain I can find just as good for less than they are charging. But for people without the ability to do that kind of a search, or from cultures that put a high premium on brand security, I think these are a compelling choice. 

So, begrudgingly - I have to take my hat off to them.  

 

Thanks. Makes sense. I guess I just don't really ever "see" that POV because I just don't have enough $$$ to go there...

[Urban Luthier]

...

[JohnCockburn]

Oh, never mind.

I'm feeling very socialist today.

[JohnCockburn]

...

[Dave Slight]

5 minutes ago, JohnCockburn said:

In my opinion, anyone who thinks £10-15k isn't a handsome price to charge for a new, handmade violin, with as many extra miles gone as you could possibly desire, has lost touch with reality.

I would tend to agree, and I think many UK makers don't charge enough as it is, being craftsmen/women first, business acumen taking second place.

Most get into making through the love of music, the history of instruments or the desire to create. These people are very focused (sometimes obsessed), driven, and certainly put a lot of effort in.

There is a reality however, one that I am confronted with on a daily basis. A proportion of players shop simply by price, the more it costs, the more fitting it will be. As we know, this is erroneous of course, but they are pretty unshakeable in their own reasoning.

Therefore, a new violin at £40,000 will be exciting because it is so expensive, and they can impress their friends and colleagues with how much they spent. A violin at £10,000 or less, which sounds superior will never even get tried by them, and indeed they can feel offended that you would even suggest they soil their bow upon it.

I've been in the violin trade for 25 years, it still makes little sense at times!

[Urban Luthier]

...

[martin swan]

18 minutes ago, Dave Slight said:

 

Therefore, a new violin at £40,000 will be exciting because it is so expensive, and they can impress their friends and colleagues with how much they spent. A violin at £10,000 or less, which sounds superior will never even get tried by them, and indeed they can feel offended that you would even suggest they soil their bow upon it.

 

Absolutely, so to market a workshop violin at £20k plus is in itself a cynical act, even more so if your target demographic is " cultures that put a high premium on brand security".

I once asked Christophe Landon why his violins were so expensive ($70k at the time) and he replied immortally "Sexy girl doesn't marry plumber".

None of this is to suggest that the new "Hill" violins aren't excellent, but you are paying a lot for the brand, which someone has paid a lot for ...

[David Burgess]

15 hours ago, deans said:

Looks like they have pretty nice benches in China

 

That is a "show" workshop in China which many of us have been taken through.

Frank Ravatin and I (both full-time pros, and we happened to be there because we were judging the China Competition) quickly recognized that this was not a real workshop space.

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

..............to market a workshop violin at £20k plus is in itself a cynical act, even more so if your target demographic is " cultures that put a high premium on brand security".

"Designer couture outlet" violins?   

 

[JohnCockburn]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

 

I once asked Christophe Landon why his violins were so expensive ($70k at the time) and he replied immortally "Sexy girl doesn't marry plumber".

.

Vomit.

[sospiri]

5 minutes ago, JohnCockburn said:

Vomit.

Comrade Cockburn, did you really vote for Corbyn? You don't have to answer than. Desperate times.

It's all too depressing for me choosing between em. Anyway, while we're on the subject of Redness, the Hill Messiah is a pretty colour.

[David Burgess]

27 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

"Designer couture outlet" violins?   

 

Heck yeah, don't all men aspire to "cake-faced" gals with fake eyelashes who are really spendy?

Nope, we'll gladly pass them on to the men who are really desperate.

[hendrik]

"..Absolutely, so to market a workshop violin at £20k plus is in itself a cynical act, even more so if your target demographic is " cultures that put a high premium on brand security"........."

Well , if you are happy to sell at that price , and people are happy to buy your product knowing what they are getting: why would that be a problem? I bet they are very good violins.

Are the Hills "preying" on people who have a "brand security obsessive disorder" ? We are not talking about essential products like food, and there is no monopoly or cartel. If the client doesn't like it, she goes  elsewhere. There is no questionable play, they are not sticking a Greiner label in each of them. 

 

Also begs the question: what is a workshop ? There is a vast difference between the large Chinese workshops model and say a Vuillaume style shop. Then there are violins made by Grubach and Seifert , Gruszow and Baumblatt, and violins made by Jeff Phillips and 2 friends. There can be any collaborative arrangement in between. 

 

[deans]

35 minutes ago, hendrik said:

Are the Hills "preying" on people who have a "brand security obsessive disorder" ?

Thats crazy, no such thing exists. BTW, how close is Hill's to the Rigby rifle company? 

[Urban Luthier]

6 hours ago, martin swan said:

I once asked Christophe Landon why his violins were so expensive ($70k at the time) and he replied immortally "Sexy girl doesn't marry plumber".

I expect many first rate plumbers make more than violin makers. (And a lot of other folks for that matter) 

[martin swan]

7 minutes ago, Urban Luthier said:

I expect many first rate plumbers make more than violin makers. (And a lot of other folks for that matter) 

He was being much more metaphorical.

that someone who has a high opinion of themselves (sexy girl = competitive high-flying musician) wants to show off what they are worth (plumber = something much cheaper and less desirable than a Christophe Landon violin).

It's a sad truth of the violin business, but many players simply won't consider an instrument unless they can also show off about it.

[stringcheese]

Reading all this makes me really glad that I'm not dealing in that part of the violin market (not even close). I might have something approaching $10K occasionally, but mostly considerably below that. Yeah, if you go from $1000 to $10,000 you better get some real improvement. But within a given range, we tell customers that more money will not guarantee that you'll like it better. It'll only get you more things to choose from, and there is no guarantee that you'll like the most expensive one best. Try the darn things and see what works FOR YOU.

[hendrik]

2 hours ago, deans said:

Quote

 Hendrik's quote : "Are the Hills "preying" on people who have a "brand security obsessive disorder" ?

Thats crazy, no such thing exists. 

Of course not ; that was tongue in cheek.

The question is: if you have a recognizable brand is it morally objectionable to promote products  - solid products - under your brand name? 

 

 

[Jeremyamoto]

7 hours ago, hendrik said:

...Then there are violins made by Grubach and Seifert , Gruszow and Baumblatt, and violins made by Jeff Phillips and 2 friends.

 

These violins aren’t just made by “Jeff Phillips and 2 friends.” Antoine Nedelec and Ryan Soltis are every bit equal makers to their colleague and deserve their due credit. They are all equally responsible for the quality of these fiddles and it shows. Every instrument they’ve collaborated on have been first rate instruments and have benefited immensely from their combined expertise. After they make their individual parts (which rotate every instrument), they spend days together, meticulously antiquing and setting up these instruments to the highest standards. In fact, I look forward to visiting Chicago School of making’s new director, Antoine Nedelec sometime early next year to see the next Tres Amigos, which will be a twin to mine, but a Del Gesu model.  

[hendrik]

1 hour ago, Jeremyamoto said:

These violins aren’t just made by “Jeff Phillips and 2 friends.” Antoine Nedelec and Ryan Soltis are every bit equal makers to their colleague and deserve their due credit. They are all equally responsible for the quality of these fiddles and it shows. Every instrument they’ve collaborated on have been first rate instruments and have benefited immensely from their combined expertise. After they make their individual parts (which rotate every instrument), they spend days together, meticulously antiquing and setting up these instruments to the highest standards. In fact, I look forward to visiting Chicago School of making’s new director, Antoine Nedelec sometime early next year to see the next Tres Amigos, which will be a twin to mine, but a Del Gesu model.  

I fully agree, I just forgot their names  - the  Tres Amigos - and couldn't find them quickly on the net.

[Jeremyamoto]

2 minutes ago, hendrik said:

I fully agree, I just forgot their names  - the  Tres Amigos - and couldn't find them quickly on the net.

No worries. They are such great makers. I’m a big fan of their work and I can’t wait to see the next one.

[larry f]

On 12/10/2019 at 4:33 PM, deans said:

Yeah, that would be 10K a piece. But most transactions down there are in alligator hides, you have to count sweat equity

 

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, Larry F said:

Off the subject, but I was living in Florida in 1970 when the Florida State Wildlife folks said, "don't worry about or harm the alligators, they won't eat you like crocodiles".

  Gators and cougars and bears, oh my!!!!!  In the wilderness around here, close to the Georgia border, believe what you want to, and keep your powder dry.  Remember the bleeping coyotes, and feral dogs & hogs, too, none of which, thank God, are "protected".