Historical bass bars

[Jacob]

Who apart from the Cremonese installed separate bass bars? Were there any violin making traditions doing this without necessarily following the Cremonese example? Apart from other Italian schools of making - Milan, Naples, Venice - I'm thinking about French, English, German, Austrian and Bohemian traditions. Or did these all eventually "convert" to the Cremonese method from originally doing intergrated bars?

[jacobsaunders]

You would be well advised to re-phrase your question. To generalise, there were two main methods of making. 1. the through neck – built on back – carved bar one and 2. the nailed neck, built around a mould – glued bar one. Both schools existed in various places. It is not a question of Cremona v. Rest of World.

[Guido]

One specific question in this regard: When did the early Fuessen tradition move from BOB to inside mould? (If that's even correct)

[jacobsaunders]

One must understand that the Füssen “system” was less to have many violin makers train and work in the town, but more to export 13 year old boys to go and learn with some relative in Rome, Padua or Vienna etc. Therefore one sees relatively few instruments that were actually made in Füssen itself. From those I have seen, the ones up to mid 18^th.C were built on the back, and the later ones around a mould (to generalise). Those built in for instance Vienna, were built how the lad learnt there

[martin swan]

I'm sure I saw an article recently about a Grancino cello with a carved bassbar ...

[Guido]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

One must understand that the Füssen “system” was less to have many violin makers train and work in the town, but more to export 13 year old boys to go and learn with some relative in Rome, Padua or Vienna etc. Therefore one sees relatively few instruments that were actually made in Füssen itself. From those I have seen, the ones up to mid 18^th.C were built on the back, and the later ones around a mould (to generalise). Those built in for instance Vienna, were built how the lad learnt there

Is Fuessen not supposed to be the origin or some sort of "Mother School" for Mittenwald, Vienna, Prague, and others? That wouldn't quite fit together?

[jacobsaunders]

5 minutes ago, Guido said:

Is Fuessen not supposed to be the origin or some sort of "Mother School" for Mittenwald, Vienna, Prague, and others? That wouldn't quite fit together?

Yes it does, those are (some of) the places the 13 year old Kids went too

[Guido]

6 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Yes it does, those are (some of) the places the 13 year old Kids went too

For one it sounds more like the 13 year olds would not carry the Fuessen tradition to those places but rather bring back to Fuessen (in some cases) what they learned elsewhere.

Second, I thought Mittenwald, Vienna & Co were building on an inside mould before mid 18th century, when Fuessen was still BOB. Confused.

[JacksonMaberry]

Stainer installed bass bars, and he was not a Cremonese. Two (that I know of) exist in original condition. On both, the bass bars are shorter in length, in height, and are roughly parallel with the center joint unlike modern bars. 

[Guido]

2 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Stainer installed bass bars, and he was not a Cremonese. Two (that I know of) exist in original condition. On both, the bass bars are shorter in length, in height, and are roughly parallel with the center joint unlike modern bars. 

Isn’t the jury still out if he was “Cremonese”? I guess a majority might view he learned from Amati, no?

[JacksonMaberry]

5 minutes ago, Guido said:

Isn’t the jury still out if he was “Cremonese”? I guess a majority might view he learned from Amati, no?

Yes, the Jury is still out in that there is no conclusive evidence that he ever set foot there. The city kept rather impressive tax and census records. Stainer doesn't figure in them at any point. Much has been written on the subject, mostly in German, but little other than style and conjecture links Stainer with the cremonese school. The jury, it seems will remain out for, perhaps, ever. 

[LiamBlack]

Probably Stainer and connections with the cremonese school will not be solved until the historians find new information.

[jacobsaunders]

A lot of mixed metaphors her. The jury isn’t “out” at all. I went through this theme starting here

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/343116-jacob-stainers-birthday/&do=findComment&comment=851749. Mittenwald violin making was founded by Mathias Klo(t)z (and his 4 sons), who had his training in N. Italy. If you know of violins made in Füssen between about 1730 and 1770, please tell me, since I would like to work out when that changed too

[Spelman]

20 hours ago, martin swan said:

I'm sure I saw an article recently about a Grancino cello with a carved bassbar ...

 

Christophe Landon posted an interior picture (and exterior pictures) of a 1707 Grancino with its carved in bass bar on his Instagram @landonviolins

I'm not sure if it's kosher to put up other folks' IG pictures?

[martin swan]

3 hours ago, Spelman said:

 

Christophe Landon posted an interior picture (and exterior pictures) of a 1707 Grancino with its carved in bass bar on his Instagram @landonviolins

I'm not sure if it's kosher to put up other folks' IG pictures?

Yes that was it - saw it on his FB feed ...

[Andreas Preuss]

On December 6, 31 Heisei at 1:33 PM, JacksonMaberry said:

Yes, the Jury is still out in that there is no conclusive evidence that he ever set foot there. The city kept rather impressive tax and census records. Stainer doesn't figure in them at any point. Much has been written on the subject, mostly in German, but little other than style and conjecture links Stainer with the cremonese school. The jury, it seems will remain out for, perhaps, ever. 

One theory about Jacob Stainer in the workshop of Anati is that he wasn't there long enough to get caught in the yearly census records (if my memory is correct every year on Easter) 

Or otherwise one 'name' which appears in Amatis census records is simply 'Tedesco'. But without looking on the original data I can't say here and right now if this would approximately match Stainers apprentice (or journeyman) years.

Addituonally there was a label on the top block of an Amati violin discovered  (was it in the Hill workshop?) which stated that it was made by Stainer. 

In any case we can say that Stainers violins, in respect of clean workmanship, have the same class as those made by Niccolo Amati. It.remains the question from whom he learned it and as a matter of fact there were not so many violin workshops in Europe around 1632- 1642 (the years when Stainer must have been apprentice and journeyman. 

[Violadamore]

16 hours ago, Spelman said:

 

Christophe Landon posted an interior picture (and exterior pictures) of a 1707 Grancino with its carved in bass bar on his Instagram @landonviolins

I'm not sure if it's kosher to put up other folks' IG pictures?

For those who may have had trouble getting to that:

https://www.instagram.com/landonviolins/

and the specific folder is: https://www.instagram.com/p/B5qeLdhg4Et/

[jacobsaunders]

5 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

For those who may have had trouble getting to that:

https://www.instagram.com/landonviolins/

and the specific folder is: https://www.instagram.com/p/B5qeLdhg4Et/

Thank-you very much for the link.

Does the top block have 4 nails? Does the Cello have an undisturbed original neck, or not. Can one find that out?