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Dom40

Violin id.

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Yes there is a Mittenwald saddle but I feel the violin is French and quite close to françois-louis pique. I’m taking it to Paris for certification. I really love the one piece table and back such beautiful wood. The backs not pinned and the eye of the scroll is confusing me. What do you all think Mittenwald or Paris? Would you agree that the violin is circa 1790? Thanks all 

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I would more think that it's a sort of Mathias Neuner first half of the 19th century. Look if the C lininings are morticed into corner blocks being longer in the outer bouts than the middle.

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55 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

What makes you "feel" that it could be French please?

Dear Dominic,
 
The violin looks indeed interesting. It is likely a violin from this period of time (end of the 18th century) which has some common features with Pique instruments though not quite built on the regular model. However, I am sure the violin is worth a trip to Paris for a closer look. Please note that we may have to keep it for a certain period of time before being able to certify it. 

Jonathan Marolle.

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Thanks, very good photos. The inside work  doesn’t exclude Mittenwald at least, the small scroll eye or the model neither. But possibly the Paris expert has seen something particular at it.

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1 minute ago, Blank face said:

Thanks, very good photos. The inside work  doesn’t exclude Mittenwald at least, the small scroll eye or the model neither. But possibly the Paris expert has seen something particular at it.

Yes thanks Blank face. I’m going to get a dendro done first I think. The wood on the table is very similar to the wood used by pique and Lupot. Single piece table with wide wavy grain. If it is Mittenwald it’s a bloody good maker! 

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11 hours ago, martin swan said:

Dominic asked my opinion a week ago and my opinion was Mittenwald ...

just for the record ...

Yes you did. And I value your opinion it’s just the same old problem that ever french man I’ve shown it to says it’s french. 

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11 hours ago, BassClef said:

Dom, where did you acquire it from and how much did it cost you?

It cost me what someone would pay for an average N and H violin at auction. I got the violin in the county of Yorkshire. 

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9 minutes ago, Dom40 said:

Yes you did. And I value your opinion it’s just the same old problem that ever french man I’ve shown it to says it’s french. 

Ask enough people a leading question and you will get the response you want ...

A piece of paper that you can bank a sale on is a different matter.

But I’ll be very interested to know what Rampal and Jonathan say. Have they seen the photos of the inner work? I think that would exclude France for most people.

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15 minutes ago, Dom40 said:

 it’s just the same old problem that ever french man I’ve shown it to says it’s french. 

One might say that's more the problem of the Frenchmen than of the violin.;) It's simply when you've seen a certain lot of old Mittenwald you'll recognize the typical shape of FF, scroll, wood choice etc. without wondering too long.

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13 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Ask enough people a leading question and you will get the response you want ...

A piece of paper that you can bank a sale on is a different matter.

But I’ll be very interested to know what Rampal and Jonathan say. Have they seen the photos of the inner work? I think that would exclude France for most people.

Yes i sent them pictures of the inside also. The person I bought it from thought it might be french that’s what’s set me off in this path. He’s not usually wrong. We shall see in the near future anyway. I have some pictures from when I was in London 2 days ago with my violin next to a 180? Pique and you can really see similar features. I’m not aloud to post the pictures th.

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I once sold a ca. 1850 dated and labeled Mathias Neuner to a customer telling me it looked like a copy of his Pique. Just saying. There were certainly some connections.

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2 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I once sold a ca. 1850 dated and labeled Mathias Neuner to a customer telling me it looked like a copy of his Pique. Just saying. There were certainly some connections.

Yes I can understand that. I’m going to get dendro done first. If the dendro comes back as German il just fix it up and keep it. 

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39 minutes ago, Dom40 said:

Yes I can understand that. I’m going to get dendro done first. If the dendro comes back as German il just fix it up and keep it. 

What do you do if it tells "Alpine with correlations to Paris and Mittenwald making"?;)

IMHO it's part of the problem that in some regions of the world "German violin" are usually all mixed up from cheapest bohemian VSOs to fine making (having the 19th century Mittenwalds somewhere in between). This concept led to many misattributions we can find at auctions as "ascribed to..." etc.

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4 minutes ago, Blank face said:

What do you do if it tells "Alpine with correlations to Paris and Mittenwald making"?;)

IMHO it's part of the problem that in some regions of the world "German violin" are usually all mixed up from cheapest bohemian VSOs to fine making (having the 19th century Mittenwalds somewhere in between). This concept led to many misattributions we can find at auctions as "ascribed to..." etc.

There Is a high possibility that may happen. I really don’t know in all honesty. I see the problem there. 

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This violin looks to me, absolutely typical of Mittenwald work of the mid 19th century in every way. 

Model, scroll, varnish, choice of wood ( one piece front and back, one piece lower ribs, inset saddle). I have seen dozens similar

I am really surprised by what you say about every Frenchman.

Why don't you open it up, you'll see the typical Mittenwald linings into corner blocks arrangement.

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36 minutes ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

This violin looks to me, absolutely typical of Mittenwald work of the mid 19th century in every way. 

Model, scroll, varnish, choice of wood ( one piece front and back, one piece lower ribs, inset saddle). I have seen dozens similar

I am really surprised by what you say about every Frenchman.

Why don't you open it up, you'll see the typical Mittenwald linings into corner blocks arrangement.

To quote the french 

“Dom, I think about your violin. If it's not by Pique, it's really close. If it is, it should be an early example (pre-1800 I would say, c.1790). The type of varnish and the work are really alike. Is it labelled ?“

 

“Yes, definitely french late 18th century/1800, and very likely Paris.”

 

This is why I’m confused. Plus the other people from England that said it was french. And the fact that I haven’t come across to many violins like this from Mittenwald in my 12 months of experience. The table is usually fine grained spruce is it not? I’m not saying that it’s not German I’m just trying to make sure it’s not french. Also the varnish is typical of pre 1800 french is it not? 
 

 

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4 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I’m afraid your Frenchmen are, as per usual, out to Lunch ...

They will be back at 2pm unless it’s Friday in which case they probably won’t bother.

It feels that way!!

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I thought with the varnish loss that the grounding would be the typical Mittenwald dull brown where the varnish once was? Or is this not always the case? Thanks for the education. 

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