Why some violins "carry" better than others

[Don Noon]

20 hours ago, David Burgess said:

An impact hammer or plucked string input might (and can) give very different outcomes from a more steady input, like that from a bow.

That is why I use both methods... impact for a simple, more repeatable test that more clearly shows modes, and bowed semitone scales for a more realistic representation of what the tone actually is.  And there are some clear differences... such as far more acoustic CBR output under the bow.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

51 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I was just wondering if the best way to match the mechanical impedance of the spruce and the maple was to thin the back after the box had been closed and listening to the effect as you go?

That makes sense to me.  I believe Oded  Kishoney uses this method.

An alternate method suggested by Oliver Rogers is to start out with overly thick plates-glue everything together-play it-take it apart- thin the plate's insides- glue it together in a number of repeated iterations.  This requires the ability to take the plates off with out damaging them.  Some makers glue a layer of Kraft paper on the inside plate edges to prevent the spruce from tearing out.

Some makers use this method when they regraduate their own or other's plates. 

Oded's outside thinning method requires that you know how the outside finishing will later affect the sound.  Oliver's method uses plates already finished but you have to know how your inside sealer affects the sound.

Both methods are probably more likely to hit goals than just making the plates to some criteria and then assembling them without further adjustments.  On the other hand scattered results may not be bad because players have scattered brains anyway.

[Michael Darnton]

I wonder how much of this issue revolves around setup; because if you don't know how violins become loud, you don't know *everything* the setup is doing in this regard and therefore you can't control that variable. . .  even though you think you have done everything the same on every violin. Or maybe the violins are even from different sources as they are in the blind tests situations, in which case a lot is resting on the person who did the setup, not on the violin. Talking about tonal quality, too.

[sospiri]

1 hour ago, sospiri said:

I was just wondering if the best way to match the mechanical impedance of the spruce and the maple was to thin the back after the box had been closed and listening to the effect as you go?

 

55 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

There are as many opinions on that as there are makers.  And zero demonstrably correct answers.

So it either works if you do it right. Or it doesn't work if you have bad ears or do it wrong. Or it doesn't work at all?

23 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

That makes sense to me.  I believe Oded  Kishoney uses this method.

An alternate method suggested by Oliver Rogers is to start out with overly thick plates-glue everything together-play it-take it apart- thin the plate's insides- glue it together in a number of repeated iterations.  This requires the ability to take the plates off with out damaging them.  Some makers glue a layer of Kraft paper on the inside plate edges to prevent the spruce from tearing out.

Some makers use this method when they regraduate their own or other's plates. 

Oded's outside thinning method requires that you know how the outside finishing will later affect the sound.  Oliver's method uses plates already finished but you have to know how your inside sealer affects the sound.

Both methods are probably more likely to hit goals than just making the plates to some criteria and then assembling them without further adjustments.  On the other hand scattered results may not be bad because players have scattered brains anyway.

I think I'll try Oded's method, based on the assumption that even if there isn't an optimal belly weight/grads there might be an optimal ratio of plate weights?

[Anders Buen]

On 12/18/2019 at 7:04 AM, Michael Szyper said:

You can ask your college, the perception at higher sound levels is also drastically changed, since the dampening of high sound pressure levels is also affected. There is only a small window of sound pressure level where an deaf inner ear acts like healthy cochlea.

The most common hearing loss cause is age, not exposure to high sound levels. A good source is Brian C J Moore. "An introduction to Psycology of Hearing".

[jezzupe]

Needless to say this is a good time to plug the use of hearing protection when playing for prolonged periods of time. 

as well as be a nifty way to test for "projection" certain violins will sound much quieter than others when earplugs are being used. I find violins that are louder that the "others" when playing with earplugs in also seem to be the ones that project more, not always so much volume wise but also frequencies. I have one violin that when played without plugs sounds not that much quieter than others, but when plugs go in, it is much softer than the others, I attribute this to the plugs cutting out a certain frequency range that the violin seems to have lots of.

It's also a good way to "feel" the vibe output in your chin and collar bone assuming no rests are on, somehow I attribute a rattling chin to pressure waves

[Michael Szyper]

The best sounding and best projecting violin I’ve ever made is my latest violin, where i used one of the „acoustically worse“ pieces of wood in terms of speed of sound and damping. The back looked quite nice but has a density of .67 (dried for 5 years) and rather low stiffness. That showed me what most of us already know/believe, that within a certain range the construction process/ matching of the archings and thicknesses is way more important in terms of projection and sound than the wood properties like density, speed of sound and damping.

[Michael Szyper]

10 hours ago, Anders Buen said:

The most common hearing loss cause is age, not exposure to high sound levels. A good source is Brian C J Moore. "An introduction to Psycology of Hearing".

Presbyacusis (age-related hearing loss) is besides metabolic factors a function of (noise level)*(time)/(genetic factors regarding noise resistance).  Regarding hearing loss i would rather recommend books written by otolaryngologists rather than psychologists, for example ‘Cummings: Otorhinolaryngology’ gives a brief, good introduction. Said that Prof. Moore’s book is still a nice introduction to psycho acoustics.

 

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, jezzupe said:

Needless to say this is a good time to plug the use of hearing protection when playing for prolonged periods of time. 

as well as be a nifty way to test for "projection" certain violins will sound much quieter than others when earplugs are being used. I find violins that are louder that the "others" when playing with earplugs in also seem to be the ones that project more, not always so much volume wise but also frequencies. I have one violin that when played without plugs sounds not that much quieter than others, but when plugs go in, it is much softer than the others, I attribute this to the plugs cutting out a certain frequency range that the violin seems to have lots of.

It's also a good way to "feel" the vibe output in your chin and collar bone assuming no rests are on, somehow I attribute a rattling chin to pressure waves

Is playing the violin with ear plugs in widespread in America?

[Violadamore]

On 11/25/2019 at 12:27 PM, Johnmasters said:

Why some violins "carry" better than others?

Of course, when you've analyzed all the various possibilities, the most likely reason that expensive solo violins carry better than others is that anyone who can afford, for instance, a Hargrave, can also afford a superlatively ergonomic case to carry it in.  [Yet another supersonic exit occurs.   ]

[jezzupe]

7 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Is playing the violin with ear plugs in widespread in America?

I think it's pretty common...first you can't drink, then you can't smoke, and now you shouldn't even play your violin without plugs, they're everywhere Jacob, everywhere I tell you and we know who "they" are...don't we. You better comply...or we'll see you in court for damages!  it's the new directive you know, a heavenly mandate

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/aug/23/arts.artsnews

 

[Anders Buen]

13 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Presbyacusis (age-related hearing loss) is besides metabolic factors a function of (noise level)*(time)/(genetic factors regarding noise resistance).  Regarding hearing loss i would rather recommend books written by otolaryngologists rather than psychologists, for example ‘Cummings: Otorhinolaryngology’ gives a brief, good introduction. Said that Prof. Moore’s book is still a nice introduction to psycho acoustics.

 

In the HUNT studies from North Thrøndelag, n = 50000, they found that hunting and shooting is the highest risk factor for hearing loss after age and genetic factors I believe. I never tend to read books. But there is a graph in Moores book Fig. 4.9 showing that at high sound levels the difference between normal hearing and impaired hearing show a more similar response. This support my opinion on this.